June 2005, 56 posts, 1852 lines
Subject: chicago artists strategy report
Greetings all,
Two years ago, the Department of Cultural Affairs released a report on the status of visual artists in Chicago. I fear that we did not reach as large a constituency as we'd hoped, so I ask you to review the report as found on the following link, and let us know your thoughts.
The findings have directed us to create a web-based resource for visual artists (and others soon to follow), the Chicago Artists Resource. CAR will launch in October. Any insight you have, as to the findings or what you'd like to see in a city-wide website, would be appreciated and received at an opportune moment.
This is the html link, which you can cut and paste: [here]
or you can download it at [www.chicagoartistsresource.org]
many thanks and best regards, Barbara Koenen Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs 312-744-7649
Those URLs got screwed.
The correct link for a html version is listed at [http://othergroup.net]
and in pdf at [http://www.chicagoartistsresource.org]
HTH /j
I am looking for some artist "intern" types to help me with a not-for-profit project next week. It's a cataloging and inventorying project and will require some box lifting. I think it will take two days and will pay 75 bucks a day.
I'll share more details with interested parties, but it's a really good art cause. Curt C: 773.343.2348
I just got my online Ausgang update today and it was worth the time spent reading through it. Of particular interest was the top ten books section.
I just got in from the Gallery 400 drawing/works on or of paper show that opened tonight. Some good work there Vincent Como comes through amazingly. Three books of pie (the equation) as drawing is really pretty in so many ways.
Hey there Curt finally shuffling through that old New Art Examiner Corpse?
Anybody else think its hot as hell out there?
I had potato soup for lunch today. Not bad really, however I used to much salt.
Anybody have thoughts on T Rex?
Missed the CACA issue JNO, Sorry. I must not have been a drop off point.
Whats the thought here on Paul Klien's new Museum project?
Did any of you old schoolers check out Pedro's show at Western Ex? Man what a dud.
Do any of you actually go to shows anymore?
So much is going on and none of you seem even interested in generating opinions, theories, critique or a dose of what have you. Is that true?
Any opinions out there about Time Out or the Reader redesign as a result before the fact?
Any notice of flavorpill.com
Does anybody else think that the gallery scene sucks, now that it's almost exclusively in the west loop?
I noticed a very quiet othergroup during Art Chicago this year, is that to say that Nova rocked the free world?
I'm a little annoyed that the Green Goblin did the nasty with Gwen Stacy.
Is Around The Coyote becoming a force to reconded with finally?
Is Graffiti really art when its an ad?
Do you people really have to be led by the collar to have an opinion about something?
Is the othergroup now dead unless you happen to be an employee of the city that has some stupid web site to offer or a housing progect to mention?
My response: I think Paul's art museum idea is a dud but even worse was Tony Fitzpatrick's response in July's "Chicago" Magazine in which Jeff Huebner asked the question, "Was Ed Paschke the Greatest Chicago Artist Ever?" Of the two paragraphs they printed from his response (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he might have said more) the second paragraph was devoted to plugging Paul's museum idea. He also slammed the MCA and the AI because they are not "here to foster Chicago art."
Really? Every time I go to the MCA it seems Fitzpatrick's presence is somewhere, from his print honoring firefighters to most recently some collaboration with his kid. Paul's museum idea is dead because his message board became a bitchfest of disgruntled artists who refuse to accept not everyone can be a successful artist. I recall reading something on Paul's now-defunct art gallery website that he believed it was a good thing so many people went to art school but dropped out or eventually stopped making art and went into other careers, because it meant they would have an art background which would be beneficial to society in some way. Ironic now he's heading this insurgency of pissed off art-people.
As for the graffiti art, I understand Rob Lowe's dad collects the stuff, in case anyone is looking to sell.
--------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
MB writes: Paul's museum idea is dead because his message board became a bitchfest of disgruntled artists who refuse to accept not everyone can be a successful artist
And the other group is...?
MB writes: Paul's museum idea is dead because his message board became a
bitchfest of disgruntled artists who refuse to accept not everyone can be a
successful artist
Curt writes: And the other group is...?
A well meaning group for the progression of forward thinking in the cause of aesthetic and dismantling of dogma, of course.
I'm sorry. Did I kill Othergroup? B
?4 ? 05, Dogmatic gallery
One more thing(s)
Pi, not pie. Although pie is tasty too.
It is hot. Don't you just love it? Time for a cool dip in the lake.
Potato soup on a 90+ degree day? Wow. You have more balls than I do.
TRex is fabulous. Too bad Marc Bolan died so young. They were a
pivotal band when I was a kid.
Missed Caca. Where is it?
Paul Klein's museum is a nice idea, with lots and lots of other ideas
swirling around it. Needs time to gestate. Not a bad start, though.
There are many ways artists can be "successful" We shouldn't hold it
against those who've dedicated their lives to following a vision for
their artwork. Look at the percentages... how many zillions of folks
have nothing to do with art -- seeing it, thinking about it, much less
making it. How much better would the world be if more were doing
these same things? That's the goal, right? Let's not cut off our
nose to spite our face.
Didn't see Pedro's show. Do go to shows, but not as often as I'd like
or should. Its alot harder when the galleries are so far apart, and
with such irregular hours. Need more than Mapquest to see me through.
And with a full-time job, where is the time to see everything?
Aargh.
Enough responses for now. If I did kill Othergroup, I'm sorry.
Aside from the juvenile outbursts, I've found it informative, helpful
and inspiring. If y'all prefer that I back off, so you can get back
to busines as usual, I will. I just thought that othergroupers would
be interested in our projects. And we could certainly use your input.
regards,
Barbara K.
On 6/23/05, Dogmatic gallery
I don't think so, unless of course your posts were actually
concentrated forms of viral apathy. I kid because I love.
MT
From: "B. Koenen" Reply-To: group at othergroup.net
To: group at othergroup.net
Subject: othergroup 2509: The uselessness of cigarettes in a non
smoking society
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:09:07 -0600
I'm sorry.
Did I kill Othergroup?
B
?4 ? 05, Dogmatic gallery
Yes pie is tasty. Potato soup is good whenever especially if its
spicey and has sweet sweet corn in it. I'm becoming a larger fan of
the Rextasy each and every day. Can't find shows, give me a call this
week we can make the rounds. Make a day of it and pack a lunch. I'm
certain everybody would love to meet the woman responsible for finally
killing this discussion group. (once again, I kid because I love)
Really I'm unemployed I have time if you want to find some good stuff
to look at give me a call.
MT
From: "B. Koenen" Reply-To: group at othergroup.net
To: group at othergroup.net
Subject: othergroup 2510: The uselessness of cigarettes in a non
smoking society
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:53:04 -0600
One more thing(s)
Pi, not pie. Although pie is tasty too.
It is hot. Don't you just love it? Time for a cool dip in the lake.
Potato soup on a 90+ degree day? Wow. You have more balls than I do.
TRex is fabulous. Too bad Marc Bolan died so young. They were a
pivotal band when I was a kid.
Missed Caca. Where is it?
Paul Klein's museum is a nice idea, with lots and lots of other ideas
swirling around it. Needs time to gestate. Not a bad start, though.
There are many ways artists can be "successful" We shouldn't hold it
against those who've dedicated their lives to following a vision for
their artwork. Look at the percentages... how many zillions of folks
have nothing to do with art -- seeing it, thinking about it, much less
making it. How much better would the world be if more were doing
these same things? That's the goal, right? Let's not cut off our
nose to spite our face.
Didn't see Pedro's show. Do go to shows, but not as often as I'd like
or should. Its alot harder when the galleries are so far apart, and
with such irregular hours. Need more than Mapquest to see me through.
And with a full-time job, where is the time to see everything?
Aargh.
Enough responses for now. If I did kill Othergroup, I'm sorry.
Aside from the juvenile outbursts, I've found it informative, helpful
and inspiring. If y'all prefer that I back off, so you can get back
to busines as usual, I will. I just thought that othergroupers would
be interested in our projects. And we could certainly use your input.
regards,
Barbara K.
On 6/23/05, Dogmatic gallery
"Anybody else think its hot as hell out there?"
Yes, and I thought that seeing "Land of the Dead" yesterday would be
a nice reprieve. Sorry to disappoint anyone who has been waiting but
that is a pretty horrible film. For a much more provocative and
realistic view of life during an apocalypse (unnamed and sans
zombies) I highly recommend Michael Haneke's "Time of the Wolf". It's
out on DVD now.
My short answer is that I didn't much care for Paul's curatorial
vision when he had a gallery, so I'm not exactly waiting with baited
breath for his museum. Will the museum have a room devoted to flat
screen TV's showing digital abstractions? (sorry, cheap shot).
What concerns me more is, where are all the younger kids starting up
their own initiatives and creating their own exhibit structures to
try out their ideas? And when it does happen, why must it be a new
commercial gallery? Why are all the kids waiting for us 30+ year old
folks to give them opportunities instead of making the art world what
they want it to be? Newer generations of local grads that choose to
stay in Chicago are looking less and less motivated to do anything
but wait on the West Loop to given them their show.
If I'm missing a tidal wave of imaginative young artists who have
been making their own opportunities and doing interesting local
organizing outside of the obvious venues, can someone please point
them out to me? PILOT down at the Texas Ballroom and surrounding
venues had good energy and some promising ideas, but I have to admit
that the evening of atrocious performance art I saw put a little of a
damper on it for me. Still I know it was much more than that for a
lot of people. It was ambitious and they made their own structures
and formats for their ideas and helped build some community. I wish I
came on a different day or something. The CHA public action had some
nice momentum behind it but everything disappeared so fast I didn't
get to see anything in situ.
Frequently, but they are usually shows where people are playing
musical instruments. Comets on Fire's show at the Abbey Pup a couple
weeks ago was more vital and energetic than most art I've seen in the
past year. And it was a little sloppy and messed up and they had some
tech problems and whatever, but the core of what was happening and
the delivery when they connected was so outrageously freakin' out of
this galaxy that who cares?
I would like to publicly chide Bucket Rider for closing one hour
early last week because of Flag day celebrations or some such
bullshit. My friend and I were not the only ones to be annoyed that
it was closed. Anyway, I'll begrudgingly try again and the show had
better be as interesting as it sounded on paper.
I was out of town for all of Version fest (which I would have tried
to see some of) and I was also out of town for the art fairs (which I
would not have tried to see) so I missed all that recent stuff. I
heard Version was better than past years. Thoughts?
I was sorry I didn't get a chance to re-visit the tourism show at the
MCA before it closed. In between a lot of extremely predictable and
trendy curating, there were some interesting things. I was very happy
to see that the hour long video "dial H-I-S-T-O-R-Y" about the
history of hijacking is available for rental at North Coast Video on
Division and Damen now. I recommend that highly. Can't remember the
artist's exact name at the moment but I was was so happy to see he is
making his work more widely available on DVD like that. Wish more
people would do this because in an exhibit with about 30 hours of
video like that show at the MCA, sitting there for an hour would be
less than ideal. Why do curators include more video than it would be
possible to ever watch? What the hell's the point? Are we expected to
revisit the show 7 times for an entire afternoon each trip?
And oh yeah, all of you are always invited to check out what we're
doing up at Mess Hall in Rogers Park. [http://www.messhall.org.] Things
are jumpin', we don't bite, and there's usually some free food and
beer sittin' around. Our video screenings are not 30 hours long and
we always make lots of fresh popcorn. And we have air conditioning.
Marc
- I highly recommend Michael Haneke's "Time of the Wolf". It's
out on DVD now. As for recent horror the last thing I really saw
that was anygood was 28 days later. The Dawn of the Dead remake ended
up being more of an excercise in updating and not really for the best
reasons.
-What concerns me more is, where are all the younger kids starting up
their own initiatives and creating their own exhibit structures to
try out their ideas? And when it does happen, why must it be a new
commercial gallery? Why are all the kids waiting for us 30+ year old
folks to give them opportunities instead of making the art world what
they want it to be? Newer generations of local grads that choose to
stay in Chicago are looking less and less motivated to do anything
but wait on the West Loop to given them their show.
I don't know that they really feel obliged to follow the same paths
that many of us did after or during the acquisition of BFA's. Afterall
the eighties didn't experience the same swell of small independent
spaces that the seventies did. So maybe its a recessive thing? New
structures entirely removed from the commercial bubble would be nice.
The Chicago doesn't have any collectors, so lets grow some, but
how whine, is old and getting older every year. Sidestepping that
entire line of thought would be very refreshing. I don't think that
you've missed any sort of tidal wave though. Some new stuff is out
there but it really seems to be more new in feeling than form.
-dial H-I-S-T-O-R-Y I've seen it. I seem to recall liking the first
half but then wondering, if it couldn't have been paired down a bit.
But then again I was younger with less patience. Maybe I'll search it
out again. On a different note, rentable art video? Does this mean we
are nearing the time when Blockbuster will be promoting the smash
release of Cremaster 9.5 the seed of chucky's banality? Taglined Slam
Banality.
Much thanks to Michael T...despite his irascibility and propensity to
burn bridges, his aim is often true. What the hell IS going on with
OG?
At Gallery 400, John Parot's new drawings thrilled and engaged and
were very of the "now"...love his stuff. William O'Brien's and Japeth
Mennes' stuff also intrigued me.
Someone, methinks it was Conklin referring to Beyer's comments about
Paul Klein's cranky artist message board, called OG a bunch of
disgruntled artists. Correction: OG is a bunch of disgruntled
curator-types.
Thanks MT! I'll pass this on to PV.
Paul Nudd (and company) at BSD rocked; Wendy Cooper has a very nice
show up right now; there are things to admire in Mark Booth's show at
BBSM, the Gallery 400 drawing show is compelling. Have you all been
to 40000 and Corbett vs Dempsey yet? They are within walking distance
of one another and 40000's current show of Nathan Redwood's paintings
kinda freaked my shit. Very creepy, plus the dude can draw. C vs D
primarily shows somewhat forgotten Chicago artists from the 1940's
through the 70's. I loved their last show, Walter Hahn, a
romantic/symbolist painter who studied with Westerman. It might still
be up. If John Parot was painting in the 50's, it would look like
this! Someone should do a two-person show with the two of them. C vs
D is on Ashland, just south of Division. 40000 is on Augusta, just
east of Damen.
also looking forward to Scott Wolniak's 12 x 12.
I apologize for not making it up to Mess Hall, though I do appreciate
Marc's self-promotion.
Some self-promotion of my own:
This Thursday, from 11am to 1pm, I will be assisting Deb Sokolow in a
performance in the windows of the State Street Marshall Fields during
a press conference for the MCA. Deb will be making a drawing to
preview her impending 12 x 12 show in August and I, dressed a pirate,
will loom menacingly, swabbing the deck, taunting the artist and
threatening viewers to walk the plank. Her 12 x 12 show will examine
the threats of pirates invading Chicago, searching for Mayor Richard
J. Daley's buried treasure.
more self-promotion: yes, it's hot, but come see out current show
anyway....i'm told that it's by far the most colorful show ever at
Western Exhibitions. It's up thru July 3: we ARE open the
Independence Day weekend
some questions of my own:
Chicago Antisocial often angers me and I think the writing sucks, but
since it gives me such a visceral reaction, does that mean it has
some worth?
Does anyone go to River North anymore?
Why does Time Out Chicago sometimes list my gallery and sometimes
not? (I know why we don't get listed in New City)
Ever had a manhattan at the Matchbox? Best drink in the city!
What do y'all do with all the show cards you get in the mail? Do you
keep 'em or pitch 'em? I just tossed out 5 years worth of cards,
press releases and brochures. It was liberating to lighten my load,
but also a bit sad, thinking about how much money went into printing
these things and how much time was spent on organizing the shows.
Where does all this art go?
One last thing: did you have fun in Basel?
--
Western Exhibitions
Scott Speh, Director
scott at westernexhibitions.com
312.307.4685
[http://www.westerexhibitions.com]
Gallery address:1648 W Kinzie, Chicago
Gallery hours: Saturdays, noon to 6pm
Directions: [http://www.westernexhibitions.com/info/index.html]
Mailing Address:
909 W Sunnyside, Suite 3W
Chicago, IL 60640
Scott wrote: "What do y'all do with all the show cards you get in the mail? Do you
keep 'em or pitch 'em? I just tossed out 5 years worth of cards,
press releases and brochures. It was liberating to lighten my load,
but also a bit sad, thinking about how much money went into printing
these things and how much time was spent on organizing the shows.
Where does all this art go?"
Mike writes:
Are you calling the cards art...or are you referring to the art depicted on the show cards? We keep the cards for about a year, then toss them. I am amazed by the amount of money galleries spend on cards and postage when they could probably rely on email, word of mouth, and news listings, all free for the most part. I can't remember the last time we received a card and was suprised to know it was happening. Galleries should use cards to send to people who have already purchased works or have shown genuine interest. Anyone else and its a waste of money. Yeah, I know a lot of people will say that you are then missing out on potential customers, but I don't think its true. I've had cards sent to some friends and often they didn't even read the cards.
And I don't think the OG is a bunch of cranky people at all. For several months all I read was about trees budding and bugs appearing. Real boring shit, but definitely not cranky.
Sounds like fun. I'll give you a call.
B
On 6/24/05, Dogmatic gallery
Hi All,
Nice set of threads last couple days.
The problem with OG is every time someone starts a threads, someone craps on the thread and the person and the thread gets shut down. Surprise surprise that it gets so quiet, who wants the abuse? Barbara's endeavor is noble and she came to us for feedback and to help to shape the resource site. A fine example of a person and cause that should NOT be pooped on.
On a total tangent, galleries aside, has anyone ever worked the coffee shop scene for hanging art? What kind of cuts do they take? Any luck selling anything out of them? This is where I'd rather not re-invent the wheel and go to 100 coffee shops. I'm making fish again and selling them at a >$300 price point and really can't give more than 20% to the space. And they cross the line between furnishings and art, as I, ummm, paint them with B. Moore 2 oz. paint samples and customize them to match people's ... trim.
Whatever, I need the cash.
Nolite te bastardes carborandarum.
Kathryn
Does anyone know if the subscription mechanism is not working? I know a guy
who was having problems even though he is following the FAQ guidelines.
Jno, do you take care of this in your infinite generosity?
Thanks,
Curt
On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Curt Conklin wrote:
Who knows. I'll test it.
I subscribed myself. That worked.
I subscribed Paul, at his request, by adding his email address to the
list. His original request was refused by the email pre-proccesor for
being too close to spam or wildly oversized. So says the maillog.
Use of all the Microsoft bells and whistles (multipart/alternative, Office
Outlook, Microsoft MimeOLE, HTML_MESSAGE, Microsoft Word 11) is probably
not recommended. :)
BTW, Keri's email is been bouncing, I just noticed. Anyone have any clues
or better addresses?
Now back to yr regular programming.
HTH /jno
Yes, OG has been quiet, some of us with, sad to say, more important things to
take care of haven't had the opportunity to type or think outside our
pressing obligations. And hardly getting those done besides. Anyway...
Dogmatic:
"Anybody have thoughts on T Rex?"
Completely underrated, no matter how overrated. Simply the best. No one since
has gotten the swagger of a boogie down properly. Listen to Slider whenever
possible. mmmmm jeepster mmmmm.
Don't worry, one of the whiniest and pointlessly self-indulgent ever.
Personally, worst idea ever. The museum will accomplish not much more than
any institution already here in town, and not add much more. The biggest problem
is getting Chicago artists shows elsewhere, not here, that is what builds
support, a network, and a career, if that is what you want to call it. For 1/4 to
1/2 the money it would take to start and keep running this
institution/pipe-dream funds could be established:
1. At the MCA, Art Institute and Smart with the restrictions to purchase
works by Chicago people, which would add Chicago works to international
collections and in institutions that loan and travel their works on occasion.
2. At the Renaissance Society, Hyde Park Art Center and/or Gallery 400 to
beef up the exhibits and catalogs they already produce (or want to produce) on
Chicago artists.
3. Given to the small not-for-profits to expand the work they already do for
Chicago artists.
4. Set up some sort of fund to pay for Chicago artists to travel, or to help
supplement the costs of exhibiting in other cities.
All of these things, or any combination thereof, would do twice as much,
maybe more, than the proposed museum/foundation ever could. Not toio mention what
the funding of this institution would do to midlevel not-for-profit funding at
other places. Does Paul even know some of the plans for the new Hyde Park Art
Center? Which will do many of the things he wants to do, but with an already
exsisting and at some level respected network?
Way too much to do, and I have been out of town most the last two months. So
I've missed just about everything, except what I've been paid to review. I
regret missing Paul Nudd at BSD, I like him enough I would practically kiss his
toes, if I didn't secretly think they might disturbingly resemble his drawings
and videos.
No
Not really. But no time to check either.
I'm sure you'll get over it. At least I hope so, for our sakes.
To the same degree that visual art or music are when used in an ad.
No.
Speh:
"Correction: OG is a bunch of disgruntled curator-types."
Correction: OG is a bunch of snarky art-types. (I can count at least a
handful here who are not disgruntled, anyway.)
Yes, both are worth the trip. Though in the efforts of disclosure, I am
working with Corbett on a couple projects, so my vision may be a little blurry.
I can say a couple of the video programs up there...though I was out of town,
I desperately wanted to be there. They had some good stuff on the tele.
Some self-promotion of my own:
I would love to see you as a pirate. Maybe the most honest thing you've ever
worn!?!
I will add Deb's drawing at Gallery 400 is pretty endearing and great.
No. There is good pain (i.e., after a hard run or swim, or a hangover). Then
their is bad pain (i.e., a metal rod in your forehead, a rusty nail through
the bottom of your foot). Never confuse the two.
Well, I have for reviews, and there were tons of folks each time. Mostly
school groups from out of town.
Yes, they are fantastic, but everyone knows gin and tonic is what you drink
in the hot months. Manhattans are for fall.
I keep them, archive them, put them in boxes, and sometimes use them for
teaching or comparisons. I love ephemera.
Didn't go.
Kathryn:
"The problem with OG is every time someone starts a threads, someone craps on
the thread and the person and the thread gets shut down. Surprise surprise
that it gets so quiet, who wants the abuse? "
Maybe I have issues, but I want the abuse. What's the use of having an
opinion, if someone won't challenge it? I like having to roll up the sleeves and
think about what I'm doing/thinking. There is too little critical dialogue, and
too many people think critique is a bad thing. More more more. Some of us out
there can take it.
anthony
anthony wrote:
I would love to see you as a pirate. Maybe the most honest thing you've ever
worn!?!
i'm laughing here, but also not really sure how to take this????? should I
be offended?
anthony also wrote:
Maybe I have issues, but I want the abuse. What's the use of having an
opinion, if someone won't challenge it? I like having to roll up the
sleeves and
think about what I'm doing/thinking. There is too little critical dialogue,
and
too many people think critique is a bad thing. More more more. Some of us out
there can take it.
WORD TO THIS! Mega dittos.
AE: "Any notice of flavorpill.com"
Not really. But no time to check either.
You needn't really check out flavorpill...you sign up at
[http://chi.flavorpill.net/] and a new issue is delivered to your email
machine every Tuesday....art and culture and stufff....it aint'
bad...Annette Ferrara is doing some of the art writing for it.
- Dogmatic:
- Aelms:
has gotten the swagger of a boogie down properly. Listen to Slider
whenever
possible. mmmmm jeepster mmmmm." mmmmm Unbridled enthusiasm worn
like a weapon for pleasure mmmmm (or Scott Speh dressed as a Pirate,
whichever)
- Dogmatic:
- Aelms:
any institution already here in town, and not add much more. The
biggest problem
is getting Chicago artists shows elsewhere, not here, that is what
builds
support, a network, and a career, if that is what you want to call it.
For 1/4 to
1/2 the money it would take to start and keep running this
institution/pipe-dream funds could be established:
1. At the MCA, Art Institute and Smart with the restrictions to
purchase
works by Chicago people, which would add Chicago works to
international
collections and in institutions that loan and travel their works on
occasion.
2. At the Renaissance Society, Hyde Park Art Center and/or Gallery 400
to
beef up the exhibits and catalogs they already produce (or want to
produce) on
Chicago artists.
3. Given to the small not-for-profits to expand the work they already
do for
Chicago artists.
4. Set up some sort of fund to pay for Chicago artists to travel, or
to help
supplement the costs of exhibiting in other cities.
All of these things, or any combination thereof, would do twice as
much,
maybe more, than the proposed museum/foundation ever could. Not toio
mention what
the funding of this institution would do to midlevel not-for-profit
funding at
other places. Does Paul even know some of the plans for the new Hyde
Park Art
Center? Which will do many of the things he wants to do, but with an
already
exsisting and at some level respected network?"
I'm not up to date with all that will be happening at the HPAC. I'm
aware of the move to the new location in the next year. But I'm
unaware of what this move will mean outside of a physical relocation.
Could you elaborate? I think that utilizing existing resources and
expanding on them is generally a good thing. It can go a long way
towards bolstering an already rich and deep shared history. As such it
also compells a greater sense of depth within the community while
rewarding hard work, adaptability and resource management. I also tend
to agree with getting Chicago's artists out vs. keeping them in. It
really isn't so paradoxical to think that artists would benefit from
being able to reach opportunities outside of the city, provided that
they could do so from within the city. These mechanisms would go a
long way towards establishing a larger presence elsewhere. Sadly these
resources do seem a little atrophied at the moment. However my keen
sense of optimism leads me to believe that this is certainly not going
to be the case forever. Lastly, I think that some of this might roll
back into what Marc was saying or questiong in regards to new
spaces/new ideas. There really hasn't been a dynamic shift in thinking
here in some time, even longer if you excise the wanna be rock star
buffoonery inherent in opening an apartment gallery. The city needs
new ideaspace to maintain its healthy sheen but oddly the most notable
changes on the ideaspace landscape recently have been older venues
retooling or folding entirely and many projects seem to be blanketed
in a sort of well intended provincial revisionism. So where does this
lead us now?
hello othergroup[er/ist]s
i joined i JAN 2005 but did not yet say hello.
hello. here are sum links + nfo by way of a (self-induced)
introduction: i am jonCates + i am an Assistant Professor in Film Video
and New Media at the School of the Art Institute. i have developed and
teach the courses in the New Media path of the Film Video and New Media
Department
[http://www.filmvideoandnewmedia.info]
+ blog on newMedia(now&&then)
[http://www.newmedianowandthen.blogspot.com]
+ organize events
[http://www.r4wb1t5.org]
+ develop parallel hystories of new media, artware +
{code|concept}-based art
[http://www.criticalartware.net]
+ make projects, pieces + systems
[http://www.systemsapproach.net]
now on to my 1rst post to OG in reply to the following msgs + thread...
On Jun 23, 2005, at 11:32 PM, Dogmatic gallery wrote:
yes. totally. but then again hell...
i <3 potato soup
T Rex is my favorite dino. i made a Casio calculator watch wearing T
Rex:
[http://www.artic.edu/] ~jcates/images/PHONM_www.jpg
the mascot of my recent Prehystories of New Media class:
[http://www.artic.edu/] ~jcates/PHONM_SPR05/
i goto alot of www based works, projects, pieces + systems. sum are
positioned as shows. for instance, i would encourage everyOne onList to
goto Gallery1F's AtoD show. AtoD, Gallery1F's first web-based show,
incl's the work of Josh Azzarella, Bryce Beverlin II, Antonia D'Orazio,
Elena Jovanova, judsoN + ][mez][ as curated, compiled + organized by
Ezara Hoffman + Jake Elliott:
[http://gallery1f.org/]
not true
i am working on all of the above...
yes + i thin their spotlight [of/on] WIRED's NextFest incl'd sum
intense hyperbole that i have seen elseware (i.e. SunTimes) comparing
WIRED's NextFest to the CHI World's Fair. this is a very brittle
comparison on so mini levels + breaks under so lil weight.
nope
well, i've been onList for 6 months + am just saying hello + posting 4
the 1rst time, but i'm changing that now.
On Jun 27, 2005, at 8:23 AM, Scott Speh wrote:
i suppose thats entirely {relative|subjective} but does visceral
reaction == worth? or better yet, positive value?
Chicago Antisocial is clearly valuable to the Reader. i think of
Chicago Antisocial as a diaristic blog that is printed by the Reader +
intended to inflame if possible or at least stir the kettle or maybe the
better phrase is strike the iron while it is hot.
nope, but i had a Dirty Blonde at Butter:
[http://butterchicago.com/]
that was an aweSum martini.
i keep mini of them but then again i also have almost all of my email
from the last 10 years + tons of files, logs + caches from this
timeframe as well.
do you mean the art of the fliers, cards + promos? ppl keep it + toss
it. i hang it up sumTimes.
if you mean more {generally|existentially} then thats a more difficult
+ open ended question...
// jonCates
# [http://www.r4wb1t5.org]
# [http://www.criticalartware.net]
# [http://www.filmvideoandnewmedia.info]
# [http://www.newmedianowandthen.blogspot.com]
The Chicago Art Foundation is not about me and my vision, nor did I conceive
of it. Several artists contacted me shortly after Ed Paschke died because
they realized there was a void left by the agendas of the MCA and AIC. They
suggested I would be a good first director.
This museum will be strongly guided by the input and vision of artists. As
such it is an entirely different structure than museums that have existed so
far.
Good points were raised about the strengths of the Hyde Park Art Center, the
Renaissance Society, the Smart Museum and others. The Cultural Center was
left off the list - it shouldn't be. We are very familiar with what these
places are doing. I think it is exciting, especially the strengths of the
Cultural Center and the innovations coming at the HPAC.
(I do not want to usurp this board's significance and use it as a forum for
"our" issues - I will try to stick to responding to comments posted here. If
you want to see more of what we are about go to
[http://www.chicagoartfoundation.org/] )
We agree about the importance of getting Chicago artists and their art seen
outside Chicago. To accomplish this we will export a show for just about
everyone we present, 10 to 15 per year. Some of these shows will go to
museums; some will go to commercial galleries. The objective is to get the
work out. We already have commitments for 3 shows and we haven't even
presented one yet.
We will hire temporary curators on a one-time basis from significant
American and Foreign venues, ask them to come to Chicago 1 week out of every
8 for a year and insist they select art by going to at least 20 galleries
and 60 artists' studios. They will see a lot of artists and obviously find
other work that is relevant to their particular program.
The MCA and AIC already have large holdings of art by Chicago artists and
they hide them constantly. The Art Institute owns over 1000 works by
Chicago artists. It isn't their purpose to show it. Beating a dead horse
does not make it gallop.
Giving more money to the Renn, HPAC, Gallery 400 and CAC is a good idea. I'm
all for it and personally contribute just about every year.
I like the idea of setting up a fund to enable Chicago artists to travel.
I'll add it to our list.
We are not interested in undermining any of the activities of any existing
Chicago institution. Our objective is to cooperate with them and steer
people to their exhibitions. We do not want to take money away from other
cultural institutions here - that would be counterproductive. There are
plenty of untapped sources.
We need to learn about our history and preserve and protect it. We want a
relevant library of Chicago material. For example we'd love complete set of
White Walls. We are already asking all Chicago artists for one copy of every
catalog or book they are in.
We will encourage a Chicago artist, worthy of an exhibit, to suggest anyone
in the world with whom they would like to show and then invite that person
to participate in a two-person show, along with a catalog, a competent
critical essay, a radio and HDTV interview, a permanent internet archive,
with a large caring audience interested in the power of art and making it
accessible to all, not just the art intelligentsia.
Let me add one more idea. We will have flatfile drawers capable of holding
up to 500 artists' works on paper, curated by a committee of Chicago
artists, enabling all artists of all ages to have a presence in the museum,
as determined by their peers. And we will have 2 video rooms; one to
showcase new media and one to showcase other media like paintings, sculpture
and installations.
Thank you.
Thank you Kathryn, for the kind description of our endeavor. I guess
I didn't kill othergoup afterall! I don't know if 'noble' is exactly
how I'd describe our project, but we are hoping to provide significant
help to artists, and strengthen the community overall. Is that noble?
Or just practical.
Speaking of which, we are holding several focus groups in the next
weeks, and it would be great if any othergroupers would participate.
Y'all have thought about issues alot, and we value your opinion. The
meetings run about 1 1/2 hours, we serve food, and it comes at a
pivotal time. We're looking at navigation and language. If you are
interested, contact me at barbara.koenen at cityofchicago.org (my new,
official email address).
The 'pooping' thing is something we've been talking about. It can be
very off-putting to have someone really rag on a person/thing -- I
know I've been reluctant to particpate in othergroup and klein's
discussions because stuff can be so over-the-top that it's difficult
to respond to. But it does seem to sort itself out eventually. We're
going to have forums on CAR, so it is an issue we have to consider --
how to balance outrageous posts with cultivating a larger community.
How to moderate to alleviate libelous or defamatory posts while still
having a vital dialogue. It's an art, to say the least.
Coffeehouses... I've had several shows in venues like that and some of
my most loyal collectors have come from them. You don't get the
critical acclaim, but the potential to sell work is much more in your
hands. You should make sure to have a written agreement with the
place, and include liability in case something gets damaged. Unless
the business has an established collector base, or provides
exceptional advertising, 20% seems reasonable... you are providing
them unique decoration and bringing in business, and they are
conducting their primary business as usual.
Venues? I'm dating myself, but back in the day, the Charleston was
good, as was the Third Coast. Bite on Western. There's an Italian
coffeehouse at 30 N. LaSalle that has had good sales. The Chicago
Artists Coalition might have some other suggestions. Othergroupers --
any ideas? I know it's not cool, but bucks are bucks, and its good to
get stuff out in the world.
Nothing else for now. Except the memorable instruction:
Get it on. Bang a gong.
Get it on.
B
On 6/27/05, Kathryn Born
I think there are a lot of young art spaces, many of which might as well be non-commerical. I think there are too many, in fact. Someone could organize a race to see how many galleries you attend in one night.....it would look like Cannonball Run, since you would have to drive all around Chicago. I'm sick of going to galleries simply because they're not in the West Loop or River North. I used to think the present Gallery 400 space was too far away from it all. Too often these new galleries are in crowded residential neighborhoods or really seedy places you wouldn't want to leave your car. And I hate having to drive to get somewhere. I live in the city so I can bike or take a bus, but we all can't be as dedicated as Fred Camper, you know. Please, move back to one neighborhood!
---------------------------------
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Michael Beyer wrote " Too often these new galleries are in crowded residential neighborhoods or really seedy places you wouldn't want to leave your car."
I think it is great there are so many new young art spaces opening up. It sometimes brings new and fresh ideas to the Chicago art scene. And who cares if they are not in the West Loop or River North. That is the beauty of it. You are forced to search for them. You must have some xenophobia about going to neighborhoods where you do not get valet parking.
/mc
Michael Beyer writes:
Please, move back to one neighborhood!
I write:
Wow, Michael, I knew that there was this undercurrent amongst Chicago
collectors and enthusiasts, but never heard it voiced so directly. I guess
it's good to get this attitude into the light. You realize, right, that
those neighborhoods you mention, West Loop and River North, are fucking
expensive, a formidable obstacle for the enterprising neophyte entrepreneur
wanting to share his/her vision with the world, especially if this aspiring
gallerist didn't make a fortune in another field, or has a wealthy spouse,
or comes from money.
You realize, in that great big art market of New York, that it would take
you several days to see everything....the scene isn't ALL in Chelsea: Lower
East Side, Upper East Side, 57th Street, Williamsburg, SoHo, etc, etc.
Hell, in LA, you'll be in your car ALL day just to go to one gallery
district, and there are several. You can easily, in Chicago, see all the
art in River North, the West Loop, Pilsen and those crowded residential
neighborhoods in West Town in one day. But this is just too inconvenient, I
guess. Perhaps we should just go to Schaumburg and go to the fucking mall.
Everything's under one roof there.
Are you discussing my space when you say "really seedy places you wouldn't
want to leave your car." I, nor have any of my visitors, have ever had any
trouble parking there. We're also very close to the Ashland Green Line Stop.
But anyways, I read and hear about this boom market for young art on the
coasts and internationally, where collectors are fervent, searching out the
next hot artist, setting the agenda almost before the galleries and
curators. Leaving aside, for a moment, this obsession with youth that many
find problematic, the attitude expressed by Mr. Beyer neatly sums up many
of the troubles with the Chicago art market. And let's not be pollyanna-ish
about this. We are talking about a market. We need a strong market to keep
artists here in town, to foster the city's creative output and reputation.
But if our collector's ain't willing to do the leg work, as Mr. Beyer's
post confirms, then Chicago will permanently remain a second (or third, or
fourth) rate art market, doomed to watching recent MFA's flee for the
coasts, apartments galleries sprout up and then die, commercial galleries
growing more timid in presenting their vision and showing more and more
crap already ratified from the coasts. I should just shut the doors to my
gallery today. Thank you, Michael, for the needed slap in the face.
Soon to be closing,
Scott Speh
Director, Western Exhibitions
Scott: No, actually i like your gallery very much. I
was talking about another gallery that my wife did not
like to go to by herself. Your place is very safe.
Desolate, but safe. I can't believe you are closing!
I haven't heard anything about this, but then again, I
admit I haven't been out in quite a while (more
reasons than just location of spaces).
Yes, I realize River North and West Loop are very
expensive. Didn't mean to "slap" anyone in the face,
and it was actually more an observation than a
request. of course you couldn't see everything in new
York in a day, but you also have several neighborhoods
you can walk through and see more than a handful of
galleries. Someone wrote that the West loop art
market is the only place where anything is happening,
but even the West Loop seems to be slowing and
thinning because of high rent and few collectors.
I'm glad you bring up the topic of young art being
hot. i was about to ask the other day, "is young art
old?", meaning, is the fever for young art going to
die anytime soon. Its unfortunate that Chicago hasn't
gotten the benefit of this, except for one gallery
perhaps. Does anyone have a solution to this? one of
the last threads, before the slowdown of the
Othergroup, was the economics of the Chicago art
market and my position has always been that Chicago
needs to grow more collectors, and especially the
middle market collectors....those with a decent job
and a love of money but who cannot spend 5 grand on a
work of art. I don't think Chicago can attract the
big collectors back from Basil or the coasts any time
soon, so the point now is survival.
I also disagree that the collectors are setting the
agenda, unless the agenda is to buy everything that is
young and affordable, hoping it will pay off in the
future.
I think the issues of the lack of support for
galleries, the lack of support from the museums (at
least from what Paul's insurgency claims) are all
related. the way I see it, if all the MCA and AI did
was coddle local artists, Chicago would not be
respected as an international scene, kind of like if
we didn't have an international airport, Chicago would
become....Rockford? But if the gallery scene is
disparate with lots of experimental, young spaces, it
would seem like a bunch of principalities rather than
a cohesive scene. Sorry, but people like convenience,
which is why malls work economically. When I was
studying studio art so many years ago, i read a book
called something like "how to survive and propser as
an artist". Didn't get much out of it and ended up
dropping out of the program anyway, but one thing it
did suggest is that if you want to prosper locate near
other galleries to get the foot traffic. Otherwise,
it is natural your space will suffer.
But I am sorry to hear your space is closing as I
thought you were one of the more successful young
galleries around. I guess it is more grim than i
thought.
--- Scott Speh
Michael,
Many valid points that I may take up soon (need to actually get some day
job stuff done today), but be assured, I was being facetious in saying that
my gallery is closing. We're still very much alive, struggling like most,
but alive and have shows scheduled well into 2006. My facetiousness stems
from being in such an inconvenient location, that I just oughta shut the
doors in the face of such insurmountable odds.
sorry for the confusion,
s
Ooh, goody, we're writing about logistics. I love logistics.
I don't think we need it all to be in one area, that's not reality. But clusters are good. That cluster of Bucket Rider and the building across the street is just .... handy, and you go from one show to another on a big night for openings. So it's good to cluster by location, but also having openings on the same night. Pilsen obviously does a good job of it with 2nd Fridays and having a clean shot with the Halstead strip.
The reality it that an audience member looks at a piece of art for about 30 seconds, if they're serious about art. So take your pieces and multiply by that number. If you have a calculator handy, it means you could see a 12-piece show in 7.5 minutes. Then you stall at the gallery to prove that you are the real deal and justify the fact that you drove for 10 minutes and 5 additional minutes looking for parking.
If things could be clustered enough that the commute time to the cluster was less than the viewing time, it would be more satisfying. So I don't think it matters where the cluster is, just that there are 3-4 galleries that have openings at the same time and you can hop from one to another without re-parking.
That's why I'm all about art festivals (of sorts), creating a situation where groups share in the cost of marketing the event and bring in a larger audience to share with fellows in the cluster.
Kathryn
It might be interesting to some of you that the MCA has recently started up
a group for collectors of "Young Art". We've got about 20 members and the
museum is matching our dues for acquisitions. That's about as concrete a
commitment to young art as we could hope for.
The meetings (we have about 4) are part talking about what pieces or artists
are good for the museum, and part us talking about what Young artists we are
interested in. Many Chicago based artists have been discussed including (I
would expect) some that read this list serve.
It started as a grass roots effort by some younger members/collectors at the
museum who felt their needs were not being met by the regular too blue hair
programming. The curatorial staff and executive management are on board.
Curt
--- polvo Um, no, thats an obnoxious presumption that proves you
are not customer oriented. no wonder Chicago has no
collectors when this is what you think of potential
customers. Not all customers are rich yuppies. One
thing you may forget, as I do being a guy, is that
many women, not all, but definitely more than a few,
don't like going to shady neighborhoods alone. Since
many genuine collectors (there is a difference between
collectors and customers, and i think too many
gallerists are waiting for that angel collector to
come through the door and splash a pile of cash in
their laps rather than foster the general public to
shop) are older women who often shop alone or in
pairs, do you think they should go hunting for
galleries?
And I agree, experiemental spaces are great, but it is
difficult to be experimental and commercial at the
same time. I think we need more commercial galleries,
or at least customer-oriented galleries as this thread
is proving, rather than a new museum or more
experimental spaces. Too often I've heard gallerists
say they support artists by exhibiting their work. I
believe the only way to support an artist is by
selling their work. Anything else is helping artists
develop. Again, a difference that is often confused.
Michael,
That's why they are called experimental spaces. We do not depend on any ignorant collectors(whose perception of art is only if it fits their livingroom decor) or some rich person coming to save us. Any people that buy our art are aware of our philosophy and are smart enough to understand Chicago neighborhoods to realize Pilsen is safe for men or women.
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I don't agree. I think when experimental means it won't be purchased by anyone - outside of a conceptual art collector who warehouses works as a potential investment- it's a totally different "product" than art that can be hung in someone's home. To treat a sell-able product and an installation as the same thing is where we are all going wrong.
I love experimental work, I personally like working with words and text that makes a neato installation - but is not something I would want in my living room. I treat my fish sculptures and my installations as two totally different entities. One is a commodity, one is an experience.
We need to see this experience, the audience in a gallery of installations not as a potential buyer but as someone who is there for the moment. Galleries can be a showroom for art OR (and emphasis OR) a form of entertainment. Something neat to see. If we can start to treat non-sellable installations and conceptual art as entertainment we can be honest about the fact that no one is going to hand us their credit card. Once we face that reality, we can look at things like charging admission (again, the festival model) and not being a stupid free bar for everyone. The fact that we pay for everyone's wine is symbolic of how desparate we are to get an audience. We are too ashamed to even ask people to throw in a couple bucks for their drink.
K
Hey Micheal Beyer,
Customer orientation is for Wal-mart and Target. That is, the experience of being a customer can be had almost anywhere, there is no reason why galleries and artists have to reproduce that experience for people. So-called experimantal spaces might rather challenge people's intelect, their social preconceptions and misconceptions, and bring people of disperate backgrounds together for a unique social experience. Seriously, if collectors aren't interested in that type of thing there are lots of places for them to go shopping. No, there are not enough experimental spaces!!! There are not enough places for people to work on making new ways to understand and engate the world. It's a lot of friggin' work and we need a lot more people to help out. If the only way you can think of to support someone is to go shopping you need to spend a little time working on your own creativity. How dead is your imagination?
Yours,
MikeWolf
Michael Beyer wrote:
Um, no, thats an obnoxious presumption that proves you
are not customer oriented. no wonder Chicago has no
collectors when this is what you think of potential
customers. Not all customers are rich yuppies. One
thing you may forget, as I do being a guy, is that
many women, not all, but definitely more than a few,
don't like going to shady neighborhoods alone. Since
many genuine collectors (there is a difference between
collectors and customers, and i think too many
gallerists are waiting for that angel collector to
come through the door and splash a pile of cash in
their laps rather than foster the general public to
shop) are older women who often shop alone or in
pairs, do you think they should go hunting for
galleries?
And I agree, experiemental spaces are great, but it is
difficult to be experimental and commercial at the
same time. I think we need more commercial galleries,
or at least customer-oriented galleries as this thread
is proving, rather than a new museum or more
experimental spaces. Too often I've heard gallerists
say they support artists by exhibiting their work. I
believe the only way to support an artist is by
selling their work. Anything else is helping artists
develop. Again, a difference that is often confused.
If I might interject.
There are Michael. However young is a relative term, In comparison to
Rhona or Donald Rhona Monique and Kavi are young. By comparison Andrew
at the "Bucket" is younger still. The question on the board wasn't
wether there were young art spaces. It was, wether a new group would
be bubbling up soon to replace some of what we have lost. Wether they
would in fact have a vision for change that might side step the
commercial narrative entirely and not merely be stuck in the limbo of
not selling work but still needing to. In short it was a question
about change and the cyclical nature of Chicago's talent base.
"I think there are too many, in fact." Perhaps there are, but
diversity is the breeding ground of talent, or a good kettle of soup
whichever you prefer. It's also clear that you don't really make an
effort to visit them all. So your opinion is moot.
MT
Wow, when I looked at my inbox, I thought I got cool overnight, then I realized it
was probably spam. But no, it was the othergroup rising from the ashes. Kudos to
Mr. Thomas for throwing down the gauntlet of question - Bulka would be (is) proud.
I have to agree with Polvo, Mr. Wolf and Mr. Thomas. I think it is vital to have
experimental (alternative to alternative or just retro) galleries. Not only to emulate
commerical spaces in funky neighborhoods but to take on the whole notion of how to
present art. Just as Mr. Elms' statements about the need for debate rings true in
theory. Artists, gallerists, and curators need to push how art is made and
presented.
However, we also need West Loop and River North, maybe not directly but they still
affect the art scene on a whole - just as much as experimental, non-profits, and
institutions do
Only one question really remains. Is Mr. Speh's pirate costume going to be pink?
DR
I ve reformatted the text of my earlier post to make it readable. I
clarified an oversight in some garbled text in the second sentence of the
first response. Otherwise nothing else was changed.
If I might interject.
There are Michael. However young is a relative term, In comparison To Rhona
or Donald, Monique and Kavi are young. By comparison Andrew at the "Bucket"
is younger still. The question on the board wasn't whether there were young
art spaces. It was, whether a new group would be bubbling up soon to replace
some of what we have lost. Whether they would in fact have a vision for
change that might side step the commercial narrative entirely and not merely
be stuck in the limbo of not selling work but still needing to. In short it
was a question about change and the cyclical nature of Chicago's talent
base.
Perhaps there are, but diversity is the breeding ground of talent, or a good
kettle of soup whichever you prefer. It's also clear that you don't really
make an effort to visit them all. So your opinion is moot.
I like Jackie Chan so, whatever.
If I may, you are actually sick of galleries attempting to use there unique
settings as a marketing strategy? You are sick of gallerys being recognized
and rewarded for just being in a unique setting but perhaps not following
through to the extent that you would like from show to show? Or perhaps you
are sick of retired young artists turned gallery owners in off site
locations grabbing as much if not more attention than their artists? At any
rate, if any of this is close to the spirit of what you meant then sure I
agree to an extent. I think that I suggested that this was wanna be rock
star bufoonery.
Here is where you get into trouble with my esteemed colleague from Pilsen.
At no point do you mention your wife or the fairer gender or marketability
at all in these sentences. Your concern is clearly for your car in the first
sentence. Your car is an object and it really isn't a suitable stand in for
your wife if it is meant to suggest a universal of something that you value.
You also choose to use these sentences as a set up to make a crack at Fred
Camper, who as must of us know travels to most things happening in Chicago
on a Bike. While I doubt you are in fact Xenophobic I can see were my
colleague might be tempted with that idea after reading this.
Beyond what I said about earlier about diversity. Which applies here as
well. Neighborhoods that support such saturation are typically and easily
co-opted and gentrified. One of the strengths of the small gallery phenom
prior too and around 2K was its lack of saturation. With the new west loop
acting as it's hub. You probably couldn't see everything in a day but who
cares. You could visit Kavi's grab a gyro then go to uptown see NFA and
maybe have a beer at the Green Mill and still be back in time for a show
opening at Bodybuilder on Division.
Your day would be a full one but you had an adventure. You saw the city that
you lived in and you partook of its pleasures. Now for the sake of
expediencey everybody wants to take in everything in the time it takes to
see Bewitched at the local googleplex and be done with it. How valuable is
your concern for the work and the culture that develops it if you devote to
it little more effort then you would to microwaving a burrito at 7-11. One
of the reasons that
I do what I do is that I love this city. I love its artists. I don't want to
move because it hasn't been completely reduced to an urban skinned shopping
mall. It's international outside my front door and I feel welcome inside
that community. I wanted to share that experience and engage it. You can't
do that from west loop very well if the only culture outside your door is
another gallery.
MT
Mr Roman asks "Only one question really remains. Is Mr. Speh's pirate
costume going to be pink?"
You'll just have to come to the perf to find out!
-speh
Diego Bobby writes:
Who are you so slyly referring to here? Yourself? Me? Van? Andrew? All of
us? Just curious.
-s
MW says - there is no reason why galleries and artists have to reproduce
that experience for people.
Unless of course you want them to purchase work or come back. Which of
course you don't because sales might suggest success and success puts you
one with the man.
Not good. Not good. The man is not good.
Curt
Hi Jno, Barbara et al,
It's interesting this post came up, as I've been thinking about Othergroup being a listserv as opposed to a forum. Personally, I think listservs are pretty out of style. One, forums are off-the-shelf software that you can get for free (minus hosting). Looking at Art Letters' forums I can tell he's just using an off-the-shelf product and probably got that going with little tech savvy-ness. Forums are nice because you can either visit the forums on the site and see what's new (like our archives) or email subscribe to a specific thread (a little like our listserv). So if this were a forum, I could subscribe to this thread and not another, depending on whether or not the topic is of interest to me. With a listserv, you don't have the option of unsubscribing until the topic changes.
So for example, one tree of the othergroup forum could be "The business of art", and if you hate dealing with the money element of art, you not subscribe or not read the posts under that tree. Another post could be "Artistic Copyright Issues", "Art Locations", "Upcoming Shows".
As for moderating, I've been moderating the forums at Neuros Audio (neurosaudio.com) for 3 years, we get about 50 posts a day and it takes me about 10 minutes a day to moderate when I'm being totally diligent. And my job is to stick up for the company, which would be higher maintenance than just looking for something totally slanderous. When that happens you can either blacklist the person, pull the post, or just ignore it. Most sites just ignore things, as slander, flamebaits and trashtalk are the norm. If someone says they're being slandered on your forums, then you could pull those posts upon request.
[http://forum.woot.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3]
This is a good example, I know the guys at Woot.com, gambled with them in Vegas until 4AM. Look at the comments that come up in the animation. Some are good, but some say "Don't buy from this site! They will steal your money" and somesuch. And Woot let's it stand because it shows that they'll take the good with the bad. On the Neuros site, in 3 years we've never removed and comment from the forums. No matter how much someone says we suck, we leave it up there. Like I said, it's commonplace on forums, and in the open source community we take pride in freedom of expression. MTV censors like crazy, posts are pulled within 1 minute if it hurts the company image.
So it's really about ideology.
And I wasn't saying that people can't criticize other people's projects, I just hate to waste my time reading a pot shots. Remember a couple years ago when someone called someone on the listserv "pudgy"? Total nonsense. Now MT was just joking I guess, but you can't tell a pot shot from a joke when it's in writing. Look at Speh's post for example, he could have used a ;) to indicate facitiousness about his gallery closing. But I digress.
I've rattled on enough for today. Jno, what do you think of forums?
Kathryn
"You're either with us or you're against us." So far, the most important quote of the 21st Century.
There is a middle ground, and its not a bad place. ;)
I prefer Campari with gin and lemon soda for a summer drink.
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What the hell does that mean, "You're either with us or you're against us."
So far, the most important quote of the 21st Century." I can say that,
you're either an artist or you're not and it makes no sense as well. So
whats your point?
Are you drawing lines?
Are you saying that the market is the way for us to follow?
Are you saying that you will no longer participate in this sham of a
community?
Are you throwing down a gauntlet?
Or are you listening to T Rex?
Children of the Revolution baby, "I drive a rolls royce because its good for
my voice."
MT
Curt your problems with Wolf needs to ebb. You are a buyer of work and you
have a different view point, done. Michaels point is not less and it doesn't
agree with your's, done.
You can try on some of Michaels's work, if you don't like it be done.
Otherwise drop it.
I'm tired of this shit and it doesn't help anyone, so put it to bed.
MT
From: "Curt Conklin" MW says - there is no reason why galleries and artists have to reproduce
that experience for people.
Unless of course you want them to purchase work or come back. Which of
course you don't because sales might suggest success and success puts you
one with the man.
Not good. Not good. The man is not good.
Curt
Curt,
I guess I was talking about experimental spaces, where I don't think
for a second that the only definition of success, whether or not it
puts you one with the man or something, is based on sales. If you
prefer not to think and reduce the success or failure of cultural work
to how it sells I will no longer make it my problem. I don't think that
you have any interest in the kind of work I am talking about anyway.
Mike
Curt:
MW says - there is no reason why galleries and artists have to reproduce
that experience for people.
Unless of course you want them to purchase work or come back. Which of
course you don't because sales might suggest success and success puts
you
one with the man.
Not good. Not good. The man is not good.
Curt
"Unless of course you want them to purchase work or come back. Which of
course you don't because sales might suggest success and success puts you
one with the man."
Well, Curt, I think you take an absolutely absurd step with Wolf's comments.
If I understand Mike correctly, he's asking if conviviality must equal
customer service. Which of course it doesn't, and pointing out whether the only model
of success need be servitude to the mighty consumer? Which of course it
needn't.
For example, even if we narrow the focus to commercial galleries, there is a
difference between being greeted with a smile and offer of information, and
being greeted--as I once was--with a smile, a price list, and the "ability to
make a deal if there is anything I like." when I had never even been to the
space before.
or closer to home, I know you are on the board of some not-for-profits, so
you should at least tacitly agree that for one reason or another, some actions
have been designated as best happening, if not removed from market forces, at
least with a buffer from it. And even closer to home, there is a difference
between when you step in to the Renaissance Society, and if Hamza has a free
moment, sharing you info on the art and offering a dialogue, and stepping into the
Gap and being stalked by a grinning shirt folder who you can't tell if they
are trying to help, or stop you from stealing.
experimental doesn't equal gruff, it equals, not yet set in stone.
anthony
He started it.
OK, OK. I was being sarcastic and needling Mike for purposes of my own
amusement and it's getting old to the rest of you. I will be more
constructive with my comments in the future.
More politely, If one wishes to create an experimental gallery and fund it
with their own pocket money, never selling anything, and closing up when
funds run out, then they can do it however they want and with my full
intellectual support. In this case, a traditional retail experience is not
expected or needed. And I think this was the very wonderful model for the
Pond.
If one wants to create a NFP such as Three walls and run it within the
boundaries of a 501c3, then again, a traditional retail experience is not
expected or needed. But a respect for the business part of running the
organization is very important. I have spent the better part of the last
week and 1000 dollars from my pocket wrestling with the last remnants of a
not for profit that could not see that, that made all the wrong decisions
when business was the subject, that failed to pay attention to the needs of
its constituents and let sales and marketing go neglected in the name of
"integrity". I am very conscious of this right now.
Anthony sites the Renaissance Society as an example, and he is right. The
Ren does not need to offer a retail experience, but the reason the Ren is
healthy today is because of Susanne Ghez's respect for fiscal management.
She may not broadcast it, but she is a very competent business woman.
If one wants to run a gallery, called experimental or otherwise, where art
is available for sale with the proceeds from those sales keeping the lights
on, a retail experience IS important. It doesn't need to be a Target Gap or
Walmart experience, but having someone available to answer questions with a
smile, a safe location, an up to date checklist, and a clean restroom are
important. Its not a customer experience that I am looking for, it's an
adult experience. Too often the experimental feels like an art school
project - which can be fun but gets old.
Respectfully,
Curt
A lurker awakens.
Hi all, this conversation prompted me to throw in my 2 cents: I recently moved here from a small rural town where there's no "culture" to speak of and I heard about this list from a friend of mine, so thought I'd sign up.
It seems some real animosity exists between those who prefer to see art as focused on "community" and those who see it as "commercial." Is that right? I'm not sure why that is other than maybe there are some class issues involved? I'm not a member of the "art world" other than being somebody who likes to occasionally visit the Art Institute, what I've seen at some galleries in the River North neighborhood or those "Magic Eye" things I used to see at the mall, but I do like art. I guess I'm trying to say that most of my experience has been in what I think of as galleries, where they sell stuff. When I think of places where it's about "community," where I'm from that was a party at a friend's house with, like, a band playing and a keg and a bunch of girls.
I'm also curious what you mean by critical dialogue? Whenever somebody gets critical with me, it's usually because they've been drinking too much or they're not happy with something and want to complain.
Eric Blair
I would never defend bad management. And we all know the many-told-tale of a
certain not-for-profit that thought it might but never did. There is also a
difference between no sales, and neglecting sales, something I know about from a
title or two. But I will always defend a desire to completely ignore the
market, and any desire to bend to current marketing definitions of what a visitor
needs for something off the wall and out of the blue. After all, at one time
everyone would have laughed at the hands-off approach of DIA, but many people
seem to think that is a good model now. Different strokes.
on the other hand Curt, given you said:
This means we can all agree that Western Exhibitions would be better and more
successful if Scott always dressed as a pirate, with a pink flouncy shirt,
eyepatch, leather boots up-to-here, and parrot on his shoulder?
Oh, and art school projects are almost never fun.
anthony
Hello Mr. Blair and welcome to Chicago. You might want to read through the
archive to become better situated.
MT
From: "E. Arthur Blair" A lurker awakens.
Hi all, this conversation prompted me to throw in my 2 cents: I recently
moved here from a small rural town where there's no "culture" to speak of
and I heard about this list from a friend of mine, so thought I'd sign up.
It seems some real animosity exists between those who prefer to see art as
focused on "community" and those who see it as "commercial." Is that right?
I'm not sure why that is other than maybe there are some class issues
involved? I'm not a member of the "art world" other than being somebody who
likes to occasionally visit the Art Institute, what I've seen at some
galleries in the River North neighborhood or those "Magic Eye" things I used
to see at the mall, but I do like art. I guess I'm trying to say that most
of my experience has been in what I think of as galleries, where they sell
stuff. When I think of places where it's about "community," where I'm from
that was a party at a friend's house with, like, a band playing and a keg
and a bunch of girls.
I'm also curious what you mean by critical dialogue? Whenever somebody gets
critical with me, it's usually because they've been drinking too much or
they're not happy with something and want to complain.
Eric Blair
I've been thinking about what the art world really needs, and I realized that it's not a new museum, additional experimental or commercial galleries, and neither more collectors or customers. What the art market needs is two things.
1. Rating system. Just about every art form has a system, typically using stars with five being the best. Why not rate art exhibitions? Instead of these lengthy, wordy, boring reviews which too often sound like descriptions than critiques, we should just use a system of stars to peg artworks and make them more digestible for the general public.
2. An application form that potential customers must fill out before they receive permission to purchase artworks. Ritzy golf clubs do it, I'm pretty sure the Communist party had one.....why not art galleries and artists? This way, one can sift through the collectors and customers and prevent any of the Undesirables from receiving culture. Here is the link to the form I developed:
[http://www.mmbeyer.com/MEMBERSHIP_APPLICATION.pdf]
warning for those without a sense of irony or humor: if you think this is serious, please fill out an application and send it along with the $35 application fee to the following address:
1400 16th St. NW
Suite 320
Washington, DC 20036
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Kathryn, you've given me a lot to think about, and I'd like to discuss
your suggestions with Sara Schnadt before responding. Thanks much for
your thoughts. We're considering forums; our focus groups have
brought home how important they would be. So, we'll get back to you
soon.
B
On 6/29/05, Kathryn Born
Hi,
there's been such a lot of activity all of a sudden, I don't know if
I'll be able to address all the issues that have been raised in the
past few days. But many of them are important, and are things I've
been thinking about for a while.
I think that the dissipation of galleries due to gentrification of
neighborhoods has played a significant role in weakening the art
community in Chicago. I don't mean at all to diminish the importance
of experimental galleries in out-of-the way places. Nor to I mean to
slight "underserved" neighborhoods. I have lived in several of these,
and frankly I found them immeasurably inspiring, fertile ground for
whatever one wants to do. They are almost like a dry sponge, and any
kind of moisture is insanely welcome.
But, when most of the galleries were in one or two locations, there
was a buzz. A critical mass. Excitement, potential, optimism. Same
thing with "art neighborhoods." When Pilsen or Wicker Park were the
only places that artists lived in, you always saw folks on the street
who were doing projects and wanted you to participate. Or visa versa.
As Chicago has "gentrified", these occaisions for synchronicity have
dramatically diminished. Sure there's the internet, word of mouth,
networks. But none of them match physical proximity.
So I feel that it is important for hubs of art activity to be
acknowledged throughout the city. It is wonderful and important that
art activity has dispersed in many more neighborhoods. But
conversely, artists need reliable hubs. Over time, people need to
know a reliable place to go. there needs to be places where one can
go and assume that they will come across other folks with similar
interests and opportunities. It would be great if the art community
could come together to advocate for this sort of thing.
As for the commercial v, non (experimental) vision, hey, there's room
enough for both. And we need both. There's alot of entertainment out
there, and a lot of "spiritual" refreshment as well. Art is marginal
for most folks, so if we want to build a collector base, or even a
contingency of regular folks who think art is something to incorporate
into their lives, we need to work all the angles. I know that the
most interesting art is probably being done, or shown, in experimental
spaces throughout the city, but how do people find out, and how do
they make time in their schedules to see everything. Its really hard.
The recent posts are downright hostile to folks who aren't fullly
committed from the get-go. This is not a long-term strategy for
success, no matter if you want to sell stuff or not.
In my dealings with the 'non-art' world, I see people interested in or
practicing art all over the place. They might not give that aspect of
there lives the value that "artists" do, but it is there. It seems to
me that it is encumbant on the art community to find these people,
incorporate them into the world as we see it, and work from there. If
we don't, we are lost.
This is an excellent challenge, and potentially a very rewarding one.
Let's not disparage the greater world, but try to find ways to engage
it. Who else is going to care?
best,
B
" Whats the thought here on Paul Klien's new Museum project?"
"Do any of you actually go to shows anymore?"
"Missed the CACA issue JNO, Sorry. I must not have been a drop off point."
"Whats the thought here on Paul Klien's new Museum project?"
"Do any of you actually go to shows anymore?"
"So much is going on and none of you seem even interested in generating
opinions, theories, critique or a dose of what have you. Is that true?"
"Any notice of flavorpill.com"
"I'm a little annoyed that the Green Goblin did the nasty with Gwen Stacy."
"Is Graffiti really art when its an ad?"
"Do you people really have to be led by the collar to have an opinion about
something?"
"Have you all been to 40000 and Corbett vs Dempsey yet? "
"I apologize for not making it up to Mess Hall, though I do appreciate Marc's
self-promotion."
"This Thursday, from 11am to 1pm, I will be assisting Deb Sokolow"
"Chicago Antisocial often angers me and I think the writing sucks, but
since it gives me such a visceral reaction, does that mean it has
some worth?"
"Does anyone go to River North anymore?"
"Ever had a manhattan at the Matchbox? Best drink in the city!"
"What do y'all do with all the show cards you get in the mail? Do you
keep 'em or pitch 'em?"
"One last thing: did you have fun in Basel?"
"Anybody have thoughts on T Rex?"
"Completely underrated, no matter how overrated. Simply the best. No
one since
"Whats the thought here on Paul Klien's new Museum project?"
"Personally, worst idea ever. The museum will accomplish not much more
than
" it isdifficult to be experimental and commercial at the
same time. I think we need more commercial galleries,
or at least customer-oriented galleries as this thread
is proving, rather than a new museum or more
experimental spaces. "
"I think there are a lot of young art spaces, many of which might as
well be non-commerical."
"it would look like Cannonball Run" I like Jackie Chan so, whatever.
"I'm sick of going to galleries simply because they're not in the
West Loop or River North." If I may, you are actually sick of
galleries attempting to use there unique settings as a marketing
strategy? You are sick of gallerys being recognized and rewarded for
just being in a unique setting but perhaps not following through to
the extent that you would like from show to show? Or perhaps you are
sick of retired young artists turned gallery owners in off site
locations grabbing as much if not more attention than their artists?
At any rate, if any of this is close to the spirit of what you meant
then sure I agree to an extent. I think that I suggested that this was
wanna be rock star bufoonery. "Too often these new galleries are in
crowded residential neighborhoods or really seedy places you wouldn't
want to leave your car. And I hate having to drive to get
somewhere. I live in the city so I can bike or take a bus, but we all
can't be as dedicated as Fred Camper, you know" Here is where you
get into trouble with my esteemed colleague from Pilsen. At no point
do you mention your wife or the fairer gender or marketability at all
in these sentences. Your concern is clearly for your car in the first
sentence. Your car is an object and it really isn't a suitable stand
in for your wife if it is meant to suggest a universal of something
that you value. You also choose to use these sentences as a set up to
make a crack at Fred Camper, who as must of us know travels to most
things happening in Chicago on a Bike. While I doubt you are in fact
Xenophobic I can see were my colleague might be tempted with that idea
after reading this. "Please, move back to one neighborhood!"
Beyond what I said about earlier about diversity. Which applies here
as well. Neighborhoods that support such saturation are typically and
easily co-opted and gentrified. One of the strengths of the small
gallery phenom prior too and around 2K was its lack of saturation.
With the new west loop acting as it's hub. You probably couldn't see
everything in a day but who cares. You could visit Kavi's grab a gyro
then go to uptown see NFA and maybe have a beer at the Green Mill and
still be back in time for a show opening at Bodybuilder on Division.
Your day would be a full one but you had an adventure. You saw the
city that you lived in and you partook of its pleasures. Now for the
sake of expediencey everybody wants to take in everything in the time
it takes to see Bewitched at the local googleplex and be done with it.
How valuable is your concern for the work and the culture that
develops it if you devote to it little more effort then you would
to microwaving a burrito at 7-11. One of the reasons that I do what I
do is that I love this city. I love its artists. I don't want to move
because it hasn't been completely reduced to an urban skinned shopping
mall. It's international outside my front door and I feel welcome
inside that community. I wanted to share that experience and engage
it. You can't do that from west loop very well if the only culture
outside your door is another gallery.
"I think there are a lot of young art spaces, many of which might as well be
non-commercial."
"I think there are too many, in fact."
"it would look like Cannonball Run"
"I'm sick of going to galleries simply because they're not in the West Loop
or River North."
"Too often these new galleries are in crowded residential neighborhoods or
really seedy places you wouldn't want to leave your car. And I hate having
to drive to get somewhere. I live in the city so I can bike or take a bus,
but we all can't be as dedicated as Fred Camper, you know"
"Please, move back to one neighborhood!"
"If one wants to run a gallery, called experimental or otherwise, where art
is available for sale with the proceeds from those sales keeping the lights
on, a retail experience IS important."