Base URL: [http://spaces.org/archive/other/]

October 2005, 68 posts, 1517 lines

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Hi,

I'm moving for the first time in a decade and I have a half-dozen large jars of used solvents from my oilpainting days. What is the responsible thing to do with these in Chicago?

Erik

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Erik wrote:


QUOTEHi,
QUOTE
QUOTEI'm moving for the first time in a decade and I have a half-dozen large
QUOTEjars of used solvents from my oilpainting days. What is the responsible
QUOTEthing to do with these in Chicago?
QUOTE
QUOTEErik
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE Call 311 Chicago City Services.

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Household Hazardous Waste & Electronics Drop-off Day Clean your home of hazardous household products & electronics and drop them off at sites across the City for recycling.

Saturday, October 8th 8:00am-3:00pm North Side Location DeVry Institute Parking Lot 3401 N. Rockwell Materials Accepted TVs, Computers, Cell Phones, Video Games, Pagers, Stereos, Air Conditioners, Gas Cans, Eyeglasses, Small Electronic Kitchen Appliances and Oil-Based Paints

Central Location 1150 N. North Branch (2 blks east of Kennedy Expressway at Division) Materials Accepted TVs, Computers, Cell Phones, Video Games, Pagers, Stereos, Air Conditioners, Gas Cans, Eyeglasses, Small Electronic Kitchen Appliances, Oil-Based Paints, Mercury, Anti-Freeze, Light Bulbs, Fluorescent Lamp Bulbs, Motor Oil, Old Gasoline, Batteries (Car and Household), Aerosols, Herbicides, Insecticides, Drain Cleaners, Wood Strippers, Solvents and Chemicals (Pool, Lawn and Hobby)

South Side Location 5201 S. Western Materials Accepted TVs, Computers, Cell Phones, Video Games, Pagers, Stereos, Air Conditioners, Gas Cans, Eyeglasses, Small Electronic Kitchen Appliances and Oil-Based Paints

For more information call 312-744-7672 or visit www.cityofchicago.org [http://egov.cityofchicago.org] :80/city/webportal/ portalContentItemAction.do? BV_SessionID= at at at at 1071058071.1128308656 at at at at &BV_EngineID=cccdaddfkmhjekmce fecelldffhdffn.0&contentOID=536930677&contenTypeName=COC_EDITORIAL&topCh annelName=Dept&blockName=Environment%2FI+Want+To&context=dept&channelId= 0&programId=0&entityName=Environment&deptMainCategoryOID=

On Oct 2, 2005, at 8:35 PM, Richard Holland wrote:


QUOTE Erik wrote:
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTEHi,
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTEI'm moving for the first time in a decade and I have a
QUOTE half-dozen large
QUOTE
QUOTEjars of used solvents from my oilpainting days. What is the
QUOTE responsible
QUOTE
QUOTEthing to do with these in Chicago?
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTEErik
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE Call 311 Chicago City Services.
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE

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Hello once again! On behalf of Chicago s first and shiniest art podcast, Bad at Sports: the Arts and Cultural Review, we once again pester you in order to give you the update on this week s show and what lies ahead.

THIS WEEK:

Meet a plethora of people from the Musicircus at the MCA including Eric Leonardson, Chris Preissing, Peter Rosenbloom, Rob Drinkwater and Jesse Seay. Also we review Michael Goro at ARC and we talk about a zillion painters in the Everybody Paints! show at Parlour. Duncan interviews Jason Dunda of Pentaphilic Curatorial Projects. There is some Canada-bashing, and we decide to pick a fist fight with Art News Magazine s editorial staff.

BUT I DON T HAVE AN IPOD???

Now I have received feedback from people who have said I don t own an Ipod! No problem--most podcast listeners don t! You can just download mp3s directly from the site to listen to on your computer. Just click on the download file link. If you DO use Itunes software and want to subscribe (so your computer downloads our new show every week), cut and paste the following link into Itunes or whatever podcast software you happen to use.:

[http://badatsports.libsyn.com/rss]

If you receive multiple copies of this e-mail or if you want us to go away please e-mail us at badatsports at gmail.com and we will do our darndest to remove you from the list! We are still striving to get our poop in a group. Our sincere apologies if we are causing you mental chafing.

NEXT WEEK:

We do an on site interview with Scott Speh of Western Exhibitions on 5 Solo Exhibitions (Mike Andrews, Jimmy Baker, Carl Baratta, Paul Fuchs and Ben Stone) AND we interview Philip von Zweck on his new gallery VONZWECK and David Michael Coyle on his new show at VONZWECK The Robot in the Subconscious Mind an exhibition of paintings and video. A love letter from Duncan about his feelings for taxonomies. All this and maybe more!

THIRD TO LASTLY:

tax on o my n. pl. tax on o mies

1. The classification of organisms in an ordered system that indicates natural relationships.

2. The science, laws, or principles of classification; systematics.

3. Division into ordered groups or categories: Scholars have been laboring to develop a taxonomy of moronic art reviewers.

SECOND TO LASTLY:

We welcome contributors. We will happily review recorded submissions. We'd love to have people come into the studio to record their thoughts but it is hard enough to get both Duncan and Richard in the same room at once, so sadly, we can't record your bits for you, but if you have a mic and a computer, send us your reviews or whatever. E-mail us to discuss.

VERY LASTLY:

Okay, so we are small, informal, dorky, but heck if you want to get involved but don t want to be on the air we d give three fingers off of our collective left hands to get some help!!! BAS needs another team member to deal with organizational flotsam and jetsam, schedule interviews, be the e-mail voice of BAS, whip up these swell press releases, and generally keep things pointed in the right direction. You have fun, correct bad grammar; we ll give you free beer and worship you like a god shining light into our darkroom of ignorance. Contact us if you are interested in this exciting, no-pay, no-glamour opportunity!

Our web site: www.badatsports.com

Direct link to our blog/podcast host: www.badatsports.libsyn.com

Yours,

Duncan MacKenzie and Richard Holland The Bad at Sports Editorial Team

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Should we embargoe Holland's podcast announcements? Or ask him to stop with the spam?

/jno

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Nah leave em up. The group suffers promotions of all sorts. Why exclude these with out admonishing Barbara for using the group to promote CAR or Speh to get the word out about his shows. Hell, you even tried selling a truck here once. Their program doesn't seem to maintain a malicious agenda and they tend to be fairly open minded about the spaces and artists they're talking to and about. They aren't jockeying better beer and skittles and Mr. Hollands prior posts have been earnest. Otherwise boot the bad at sports guys posts and the aforementioned self promotion altogether. Not a huge deal for me either way. I just post in this hazy gray world that others created and administor. MT

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If they are not appropriate for this list I will gladly knock it off.

jno wrote:


QUOTEShould we embargoe Holland's podcast announcements? Or ask him to
QUOTEstop with the spam?
QUOTE
QUOTE/jno
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
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On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Richard Holland wrote:


QUOTE If they are not appropriate for this list I will gladly knock it off.

Ask people. I dont mind to hear about art, except for the length of the posts. /jno

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Perhaps, Jno, you could've asked Richard not to spam on OG, rather than throw out this extemely rude "remove Richard Holland" request. I mean, c'mon, not everyone on OG, especially new people, knows about your draconian, facsist, anti-spam rules. were I richard holland, I'd say "fuck you guys" and never participate again. is this what we want, to alienate new participants?

Quoting jno jno at blight.com :


QUOTE On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Richard Holland wrote:
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE If they are not appropriate for this list I will gladly knock it off.
QUOTE
QUOTE Ask people. I dont mind to hear about art, except for the length of the
QUOTE posts. /jno
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE

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On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Scott Speh wrote:

Y'r absolutely right, Scott. those rules are just facsist. But Richard Holland has been posting since early 2004 with valid and aggressive opinions -- he is not a newcomer. And he has a sense of humor, as attested by 2717 et seq. But what I asked was..

Heard from Michael so far ("naw"). What's _your_ opinion? /jno

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your subject line, jno, read "remove richard holland"

I find this to be abrasive and counter productive.

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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Scott Speh wrote:


QUOTE your subject line, jno, read "remove richard holland"
QUOTE
QUOTE I find this to be abrasive and counter productive.

IMHO, That's silly. /jno

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jno wrote:


QUOTEOn Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Scott Speh wrote:
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE your subject line, jno, read "remove richard holland"
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE I find this to be abrasive and counter productive.
QUOTE
QUOTEIMHO, That's silly. /jno
QUOTE
QUOTE Jno,

How so? Scott's statement that your response was 1) Abrasive (I found it abrasive, and apparently I am not the only one so it is seemingly a legitiamte analysis of your origianl post) and 2) counter productive (you were annoyed I was wasting the lists time with a long e-mail, and look at the discussion it has generated making more needless posting) are both on point. His argument is logically sound, and deserves a rebuttal more eloquent than "That's silly" if you think he is incorrect.

You and I have discussed this offlist (which was the appropriate venue for this whole discussion in the first place IMHO), and I agree, your approach was pointlessly abrasive and counter productive. I had no intention to spam the list or make anyone angry and I think you could have simply approached me privately and clarified the rules (which I actually have never seen, is there a FAQ that I missed?) and I would have changed my behavior instead of a public announcement calling for my removal. All I ever wanted to do was make the community aware of a resource, in which I would love their involement. We aren't selling anything, trying to raise funds, etc. just an act of love of the art community.

I think Scott is right in being critical of your needlesly dramatic initial response. Not silly at all, I think his response is legitimate. Why do you find it silly?

Richard Holland

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snore

jno wrote:


QUOTEOn Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Scott Speh wrote:
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE your subject line, jno, read "remove richard holland"
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE I find this to be abrasive and counter productive.
QUOTE
QUOTEIMHO, That's silly. /jno
QUOTE
QUOTE Jno,

How so? Scott's statement that your response was 1) Abrasive (I found it abrasive, and apparently I am not the only one so it is seemingly a legitiamte analysis of your origianl post) and 2) counter productive (you were annoyed I was wasting the lists time with a long e-mail, and look at the discussion it has generated making more needless posting) are both on point. His argument is logically sound, and deserves a rebuttal more eloquent than "That's silly" if you think he is incorrect.

You and I have discussed this offlist (which was the appropriate venue for this whole discussion in the first place IMHO), and I agree, your approach was pointlessly abrasive and counter productive. I had no intention to spam the list or make anyone angry and I think you could have simply approached me privately and clarified the rules (which I actually have never seen, is there a FAQ that I missed?) and I would have changed my behavior instead of a public announcement calling for my removal. All I ever wanted to do was make the community aware of a resource, in which I would love their involement. We aren't selling anything, trying to raise funds, etc. just an act of love of the art community.

I think Scott is right in being critical of your needlesly dramatic initial response. Not silly at all, I think his response is legitimate. Why do you find it silly?

Richard Holland

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QUOTEOn Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Scott Speh wrote:
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE your subject line, jno, read "remove richard holland"
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE I find this to be abrasive and counter productive.
QUOTE
QUOTEIMHO, That's silly. /jno
QUOTE
QUOTE

What's with this new format,Quote text passage Quote? Its really annoyying to wade into this. particularly if a post pulls texts from multiple responders within the same email. MT

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what else is happening in chicago now? Maybe I missed the discussion, but I know there was a Michael Asher piece that opened last month at the art institute. I heard he had proposed it back when Anne Rorimer was the curator years and years ago. I know Ann Goldstein from L.A. MOCA flew in and gave did something for him at the arts club and alot of people traveled to the opening from europe. but was chicago there? Did any of you see his talk?

and I never heard very much about Stephen Lapthisiphon's thing at the MCA. How was that?

Maybe Mr. Holland has an opinion? or Anthony Elms, I know you must have made both? please fill me in.

I was wondering around at skylight book store here in L.A. and ran into the white walls/temporary services book, prisoners interventions. still looks great but I already own a copy.

Ginger Wolfe

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Ginger,

The Asher thing, I still haven't made up my mind. Duncan and I are going to talk about it on the show, I reread the info today. I found it a bit too obtuse and 60's conceptual for my tastes but I want to learn more. I know Asher has made lots of great work but I feel woefully under-educated to have anything other than a knee jerk opinion and his work deserves more analysis than that.

I need to see and hear the Steven Lapthisiphon piece, I really like him and his work, great stuff.

The David Coyle show at Von Zweck was interesting, that opened tonight. Philip has an interesting gallery/living room. Bill Gross also has a home/gallery opening tomorrow and I want to check that out. Also there was an interesting discussion and show at Three Arts Club that opened tonight. I really like Michael Ryan's piece and the Deb Sokolow piece was fantastic. The other gallery I wasn't so clear on what was going on. I need to go to the project web site to have a better idea of what the focus of the show was. The discussion strayed from the topic of the show into a "why Chicago is a crummy place to make art" sort of thing. Not entirely, but there was a heavy focus on that type of rhetoric, which is interesting but not really kicking the ball forward so to speak.

What did you think?

Richard

Ginger Wolfe wrote:


QUOTEwhat else is happening in chicago now?
QUOTEMaybe I missed the discussion, but I know there was a Michael Asher piece that opened last month at the art institute. I heard he had proposed it back when Anne Rorimer was the curator years and years ago.
QUOTEI know Ann Goldstein from L.A. MOCA flew in and gave did something for him at the arts club and alot of people traveled to the opening from europe. but was chicago there? Did any of you see his talk?
QUOTE
QUOTEand I never heard very much about Stephen Lapthisiphon's thing at the MCA. How was that?
QUOTE
QUOTEMaybe Mr. Holland has an opinion? or Anthony Elms, I know you must have made both? please fill me in.
QUOTE
QUOTEI was wondering around at skylight book store here in L.A. and ran into the white walls/temporary services book, prisoners interventions. still looks great but I already own a copy.
QUOTE
QUOTEGinger Wolfe
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE

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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Dogmatic gallery wrote:

It was meant to be annoying, suggesting the need to clean-up of email. It substituted for removal of 'email-quoted text' lines -- which I'll reinstitute. Means you have to quote text with a quote mark again. /jno

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We have had seven long and short emails about the podcast, with no content except for pointers to yr website. That's not spam?

But, Mr. Holland, to answer you: There are no spam rules. All the FAQ you will need is at [http://othergroup.net/about.php]

I would be half as annoyed if you and your partner had not earlier and repeatedly tried to break into Othergroup to post your messages (and are still doing). Those emails fall through because they fail protocol checks.

Anyone who sends a blind email is suspected of serving commercial or spammer purposes. Such, first of all, was the case.

Secondly, anyone who sends an email to the 'list' account name without the intent or protocol to subscribe is assuredly a spammer. Such, also, was the case. It represents someone arbitrarily harvesting 'mailto:' protocols from websites, or even extracting the complete content of an addressbook in such volumes as to negate intelligent design.

Lastly, a pre-delivery utility at the domain graded your email to level 2.6 spam. My preproccesor drops all email at level 3 on the floor. Some attention paid to a few fine points would probably get you past being dropped on the floor elsewhere, to quote: no real name, BCC listed, 10 lines of html, bad punctuation, and PLING_PLING. I dont know what Pling-pling is, but it is probably related to intelligent design.

With these blatant break-in attempts, I blacklisted the return address.

Then a few days later the same long announcement appeared on Othergroup. I said, "Oh shit, they learned to break in, and had Holland do it for them." Othergroup received only three of the long versions, and four more short reminders. I received six additional emails which fell through.

This site is for all practical purposes in the public domain, and paid for by another site. I dont care what gets discussed. My prime directive is to protect the host site from hacking, but I will respond to posts, and cant avoid jumping on spurious crap. We get plugs and promos all the time. With some 80 people who get these as direct email, they are probably ignored. But constant reminders are indeed annoying.

Holland, post more content and less promo. I have enjoyed your posts over the last year and a half; they are assertive and knowledgeable. (Will you read this now that you are raging beyond the boundaries of "intelligent discourse"?) (that last was a quote from one of yr posts)

Last, I thought Scott was being silly because he took issue with the 'Subject' header and avoided the text. Duh. I should have said something other.

/jno

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with our lack of critical art criticism within the media in Chicago, any new media outlet is welcome by me....especially podcasts.....

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I think the "break in" to which you refer were a side effect of my cutting and pasting my e-mail address to send form the shows g-mail account. I have since excised the list from the mailing list.

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Richard Holland wrote:

Wow that was written in gibberish.

Let me try again. When I was making a mailing list to send out our press releases from our g-mail account, I added anything I remembered as art related. Clearly this was one. It has been removed from that list.

I need coffee.

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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Richard Holland wrote:

LOL! We all do. /jno

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Asher has a sort of interesting relationship to Chicago. One of his most well known pieces, an untitled work, Anne Rorimer invited him to do at the art institute in 1979. I think Anne was a pretty progressive curator for the time which she was there. Anyway, In this work he took one of the exterior sculptures and placed it in one of the galleries. So, I think he was trying to comment at the time about what was visible and accessible to the public and what is not, also about the conservation of object. The sculpture was very weathered. I think a lot of people know about this work only because both Hal Foster and Tom Crow wrote about it. but re. Chicago, he also did a show at the renaissance society in 93?, but historically he has done more work in Europe and not so much in the United Sates. If you are interested in institutional critique, or relational aesthetics he is an obvious person to look at. But he rarely makes 'objects' so there are informed people that just can't find his work easily because of that... But about Asher, if you so desire to educate yourself. Recently Liam Gillik wrote an article that Maik Gaines edited over at Yard magazine. Asher himself wrote a short piece in Journal of Aesthetics and Protest few years ago. He told me he was interviewed for some video that I don t know if it ever came out, exists, or whatnot. John Vici, amazing chicago archtect, gave a talk about him that was published somewhere though the title just left my brain. I m also one of the only people to ever interview him in his 30 plus year career, I think he's 64 now. Our last issue featured him, which is nearly sold out but I mocked up issues that I could comp to you if you re really interested. I obviously can t attend Michael s or Stephen s show which is really, really annoying to me. Michael s show is a pretty historic event and I want to recognize Stephen in whatever way I can because I think he has a great mind. So I ll have to depend, in part, on groups like this one to let me know what the response is. I didn t even know that Philip started a gallery, so other than knowing some of his sound work which is interesting, unfortunately don t have much to contribute on his space other than the obvious, it s a good thing kind of statement.

Ginger Wolfe

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Does anyone remember this: Kham: "Doesn't this kind of union of the avant-garde and the technocrats make you nervous?"

Nope, better the artists play with technology than others I can think of. But...

Wiener was never one of the folks to embrace technology, and generally kept out of a lot of those tech/art meetings. He did do a couple, I think, but I can't even think of one example, so maybe not?. And I'm not sure if Weiner was ever really associated with an institution, particularly because just about any time he opens his mouth, he rails against them. He has worked with them on a visiting basis, but I think that is it. Likes his independence.

Ginger: "and ran into the white walls/temporary services book, prisoners interventions. still looks great..."

Flattery will get you nowhere. It is worse than podcast spam. Anyway...

Almost, he remade the piece he did for the art institute with Rorimer back for the 73 american exhibition. Also, for historical note, he did a show at the Renaissance Society, and just about the exact same time as his original piece for the art institute, Asher made a major piece at the MCA. Back to AIC: George Washington bronze copy went from front of AIC to one of the 18th century galleries. After the show went to storage, then to city hall, now Asher pulled it back from city hall, and into another of the galleries. differnt collection hang styles, different gallery placement as a result, different works valued and hanging to represent the collection,different originating location, different patina on the sculpture...Presented documents about the sculpture in the library, and two slightly differing handouts.

And Christopher Williams did a conversation with him at the opening. Which was...meandering?...

Chicago was there, but mostly the old school and art historians. A couple students, and Ben Foch. For the most part the younger Chicago skipped, I guess it required too much thinking. Then again, what has always attracted me to his works, is how little thought they really require. They seem like little object questions, rather than presentations requiring theory. The piece is fantastic, dry, bone dry, which is a change from his recent works that have been almost silly. But then again, it was a redux. it was a nice happenstance that the AIC reinstalled the Buren steps piece. Nice to have that at the same time.

Assuming you mean the piece he had there this summer: best he's done since his Gallery 400 show several years back, even is he was stuffed into the first floor entrance by the auditorium, a space I would only offer a select number of my enemies. The really nasty and talentless ones. But given such a forsaken space, Stephen used it wisely, comically, and managed to make something that took over the space, looked completely unfinished, and confused many people I witnessed checking it out. Paper, wall painting, hung works, video projecton, a little sound, and a lotta objects leaning all about.

The "green design" show has some real good works, and some I'm not so sure about, then again, friends are in the show, so I'm not impartial. The exhibition at the renaissance society is fantastic.

Holland: "The discussion strayed from the topic of the show into a "why Chicago is a crummy place to make art" sort of thing. "

Man am I glad I missed the umpteenth reiteration of that blatantly dumb and useless bitch session. Don't like it? Move. Don't like some aspect? Work to change it. a

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It wasn't the full of bitch fest but the it was darn close. We talk about this in our interview with Philip von Zweck and he really clearly states the advatages of Chicago and its community. I am about to edit the interview momentarily. Yeah, sure the collector base sucks, but how many of us were really going to make a bunch of money anyway.

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If you haven't already gone to Depart-ment ( [http://www.depart] -ment.com/) the utterly fantastic department store of all types of wares made by local artists and craftspeople at the Open End Gallery (Fulton and Damen) stop reading this damn e-mail and get over there. It is open Saturday and Sunday too! You will kick youself if you don't go. I love this event! I don't think are taking charge cards.

On a personal note I love Mr. Pickles and all Mr. Pickles related products more than just about anything, if the creator of Mr. Pickles is on this list, I love all that you do, you are my hero. I will gladly accept all donations of Mr. Pickles products.

Anyway, super fun, run into old roommates, classmates, and mates, fun times. Go check it out if you are out and about.

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The Houdon sculpture which he just readdressed in the current show was an untitled work dated 1979 and it was originally in the 73 American exhibition. But, the piece he was going to do this year with AIC, he had proposed for Anne Rorimer but after she left the museum it collected dust. They played around with the idea of revisiting it now but for some reason or many reasons didn t happen. So he revisited Houdon instead. He actually did the Houdon piece when Anne was there, the piece I had hoped would be actualized was a proposal that didn t happen. He is really shy to talk in public but I think his talk with Chris Williams was probably something other than meandering? Anyone else see this? You think anyone from contemporary made a transcription? If young Chicago skipped the Asher show, I d like to think that it s not because they don t like to think. Perhaps he doesn t have that many objects out there and thus few people in the twenty or thirty something generation know what he s about because they don t know where or how to look to find it. There is a kind of lack of interest there but I don't think its from lack of thinking- I think it's more from lack of resources to pull from. I m organizing an Interreview Katrina benefit with afterall journal now and I asked him to donate some autographed item to it. Buyers have contacted me for other things but most people have no idea who he is. The most interesting item by far but I assume my husband and I will have to end up buying it ourselves. If not, it will be only because a small handful of middle-aged to elder Asher enthusiasts, all of who I know personally, will contact me at the very last minute.

Ginger

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Hey Ginger

Thought you might like to know - Asher's work was valorized by my MFA profs as among the best of the "institutional critique" conceptualists - the chicago projects came up often. And I'm only 32. I still think about Asher often, and the work seems pretty well documented in print. I wouldn't be surprised though if Asher mostly came up in academic circles.

I'm still not clear on what he did for the AIC this time, but if he's revisiting the old George Washington project, that would not be atypical for him - do you know the Documenta project, where he did the same work for three different festivals? He had this camper trailer and parked it all over Kassel, moving it and then doing the whole thing again in exactly the same spots at the same times 7, 14 yrs later. In the photos you can start to see what he's up to.

Anyway, just trying to make sure Asher doesn't get stuck with the old folks,

kevin

Ginger Wolfe wrote:

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Ginger Wolfe wrote:

Anne wrote a completely badassed book on conceptual art (the title escapes me). She is a complete hoot personally. Whether you liked this piece or not and I not sure on what side of the fence I fall, she is a giant of consciousness, and I know she is doing a lecture on this piece in a week or two which should not be missed if at all possible.

I had to bail out before the lecture, but the reviews were tepid. I would assume they recorded it, I am sure a copy could be tracked down. If this is something you are REALLY hot to get, e-mail me off-list and I can get you pointed in the right direction.

Doubt it, they are understaffed and have 11,000 things going, but anything is possible.

I agree my initial reaction was "BoooOoooooring" and I did need to kick the piece around before I had any serious grip on what was going on. I had the disadvantage of being at the opening and in a hurry neither of which are conducive to reading the information provided, which you REALLY have to do for this piece. It doesn't work at all if taken at face value, it it pretty subtle. Now, one thing that I found a bit odd was this being a FOCUS show as I was of the notion that these were for younger, emerging and newly mid career artists, and Asher is neither of those. I went into the show without having done my homework and it made a lot more more sense when I understood the historical context of this piece and that this was an older artist instead of some whelp.

I totally agree. I'm still not clear really. Well, and as conceptual art in the 60s and 70s tradition goes this isn't the easiest to digest stuff, so I think it demands more work from the audience than shows tend to do. So I think that it is easy for the audience to pass this off as convoluted work from a bygone era than to try to interact with it. AND however unfair this may be and it is unfair I think that my reaction to trying to decode it has been tainted by my contextualization of the artist with an era in time. When I seem a confusing video piece with a rock band and a balloon animal (which as a side note i still don't know what in the hell that was about) from a young artist I think "What contemporary ideas are they trying to talk about" and when I saw this and found out more about the arts my admittedly unfair reaction was "Ah art history, this fits into the continuum of conceptual work of a prior era". Totally my ignorance but I would guess that I am not the only one who had this reaction.

Please e-mail Bad at Sports about this badatsports at gmail.com and we will plug the hell out of it!!

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"I'm still not clear on what he did for the AIC this time, but if he's revisiting the old George Washington project, that would not be atypical for him -"

That is what he did. with added bits. The documentation and handouts, as i mentioned. And actually, aside from the Munster project (see below), he has pretty steadfastly not revisited works, insisting on new works for new times, which is why you do not "see" his work much.

He actually did this project for Skulptur Munster.

Yes, she need not worry, he has thousands of fans, in Chicago alone. No the younger did not attend the opening, no she didn't catch the dry joke about too much thinking required. Most who attended the talk described it in much less fallerting terms than my "meandering," but he's shy, and so, for that fact, is Christopher Williams. The talk was what it was. a

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For some reson this posted with out the quoted text, so I'm not sure if it will make a lick of sense.

Richard Holland wrote:

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When i grew up, as most of you know, I was abandoned, found floating on the White River in Indiana, Michale Asher raised me as if I were his own. Oftentimes taking small canoeing trips down the Beezor Creek we would talk at length of upcoming installations and the priority of the "Human Experience" versus the "Institutional critique". One of my fondest memories comes from the yearly Freedom Fest when local vendors would put on display their craft wares and Mike would have his booth with his Macrame, carved eggshell tableaus, and what have you. Im not sure if your old enough or familar with that body of work but it is really fabulous.

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Ahh, yes, I've heard rumor about that work! I believe Suzanne Lacy mentioned it in her early essay - "The Immaterial Fuzzy."

Wow, how fortunate you were to experience firsthand the early roots of the contemporary "Critical Hobbyism" movement. Displacement never felt so homey.

stephenlacy at academyrecords.org wrote:

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Steve? i didn't know that was you all those years with Asher sittin' in those booths, wearing the Piglet costume, crying "but dad, this isn't the right context!"

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Richard, Anne Rorimer's book is called, New Art in the 60s and 70s Redefining Reality. I had two copies and before I left chicago gave one to Vince Como which he may or may not let someone borrow. But thanks for reminding me about it. There has been talk about an Asher book published from Germany. When that happens I'll try to remember to post about it.

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sorry I didn't even read this posting but wanted to respond. I think Kevin is correct to say that he wouldn't be surprised if Asher only came up in academic circles. and although it's good to be informed not only about his work but also about the other work happening in tandem and also what was happening in terms of relational aesthetics in France, I'd say that you are pretty much in the minority. It's a good thing that your teachers at AIC knew who he was and could talk about thim. The idea that there are thousands of asher fans in chicago alone seems to me like a pretty gross exageration. I don't think there are thousands of fans for anyone anywhere. Historicaly most of his support came from Europe. he told me that most people at the opening were from out of town. Then I went to an informal asher dinner in chi a few years ago and there were 15 people there tops. So if there are these thousands of asher fans living in chicago now-I sure never met them. None of my teachers at AIC ever talked about him at all. In fact I think its safe to say that most people active in the arts or who subscribe to this group have know idea who the guy is. Re:revisiting projects. he has revisited projects other than Houdon and Documenta, take the LACMA show for example. And the reality is that his work is actually not that well documented. He has many projects are utterly unknown/difficult to get a hold of and getting images of them can be a real pain in the ass- from someone who has done so. He's been interviewed twice in his entire career and a majority of the criticism existing is only in german. I guess it depends who you are comparing to though.

ginger

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"The idea that there are thousands of asher fans in Chicago alone seems to me like a pretty gross exageration."

Yes, perhaps, hyperbole, but it was a standing room only audience, and a lot of Chicago came out. Not mostly out of town, unless you are talking about the after party dinner. I saw many friendly faces, and had many more who missed the event, and wanted to go. So certainly plenty. Don't insult the people on this list.

Again, the piece redone was Munster, the trailer, not Documenta, the shaft of gallery light. Anyway, I know he had two different shows for LACMA, I never saw mention that he rebuilt the museum wall piece made for LACMA, unless super recent. He also had the piece curated with high school students for LACMA, for the conceptualism survey at MOCA he did reinstall the shaft of air piece, but that was more a historical framework. Not redoing something for a solo presentation. A different gesture.

Oh come now, I own six english language Asher books. And I don't own them all. He's in plenty of surveys. Eight survey catalogs on my shelf, and again, I'm sure I don't own them all. Certainly institutional critique is not as popular as the main body of the conceptual art, but it gets its major dues, and he's always singled out. October has published many articles on him. Rorimer wrote something for Artforum way back. Maybe he isn't interviewed tons, but he did release two books with huge chunks of his own writing. That is pretty well documented in my book.

of course, it isn't sexy art to teach, so I am sure it gets skipped if you don't have a real good art history course. a

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Quickly on revisiting: his show Made in California Now at LACMA was also re-exhibited as were others but again if you don t know this it s probably just because there isn t a lot of info out there.

The books you re talking about are actually exhibition catalogues with an extremely small distribution and they are OUT OF PRINT. The only semi well-known book is Writings 1973-83 on Works 69-79 published in Nova Scotia but I had to get mine from Sam Durant (a former student of his) because I couldn t get one anywhere else. The catalogue from the Renaissance society was local to you but again I would call it a small catalogue rather than a book and it is also out of print. In fact, the reality is that if someone, like let s say Richard Holland just because he seems informed and also interested enough in the work to do research, wanted to go and buy a book he would have some serious oppositions considering they are out of print exhibition catalogues from years ago. And than you re not mentioning that some of his artworks take a book form but were artworks and are meant to circulate or be perceived very differently-like the Museum as Muse exhibition catalogue in 1999 or the Occidental catalogue from 1986.

Then if you happen to be interested in a piece only written about in another language or not at all you d have to contact the artists directly and have him dig up black and white slides that are falling apart. And although you mention Anne Rorimer wrote a short piece in Art Forum, the comprehensive writing by far she published out of Germany by Text Zur Kunst which I had to help translate so that it could actually appear in English.

I m admittedly closer to it, but such factors don t lead me to a conclusion that his work is very well documented or accessible considering his influence on conceptual art. These ideas your disseminating that there are these thousands of fans in Chicago and that there is this plethora of information out there are simply not accurate and I think represents an attitude which is misleading. the reality is that America has a history of under-recognizing artists like Asher whose works are not consumer driven.

And I really don t see how thinking most people on the list are not familiar with his work is an insult and certainly wasn't meant that way. It just seems normal to me that people, smart and interesting people, would not have that specific knowledge because of other circumstances like say an artist who rarely makes objects, out of print texts, or articles not in English.

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Hopefully this does not cause as much mental chafing or discussion as last week:

This week at Bad at Sports: the Arts and Cultural Review podcast, the short version. All you othergroup folks are encouraged to participate, send us your recorded reviews. e-mail me off list to discuss details. Let us know about your shows etc.!

THIS WEEK:

We interview Scott Speh at Western Exhibitions, he talks about the current show, 5 Solo Exhibitions (Mike Andrews, Jimmy Baker, Carl Baratta, Paul Fuchs and Ben Stone), and about running a gallery space in the contemporary Chicago art scene. Next we talk to Philip von Zweck, artist, radio show producer and host, artist, project coordinator, and now gallery owner about his work and his new gallery. This show is a must for a great state of the union of the Chicago art scene and making it as an artist here.

NEXT WEEK:

Bill Gross, rock star painter and proprietor of 65 W. Grand a new gallery space schools us on talking about painting, running a gallery and his work. Also, review, reviews, reviews, Michael Asher, Three Arts Club, Depart-ment at Open End, a bunch of other stuff and maybe a visit by guest reviewer Amanda Browder to review Duncan MacKenzie s new show with Shannon Stratton at Fraction!!!

www.badatsports.libsyn.com

or

www.badatsports.com

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The hits just keep on coming. Bad at Sports: the Art and Cultural Review podcast is back again with another action-packed episode!

THIS WEEK:

Bill Gross talks about his new gallery, 65 Grand, and David Corbett s exhibition of paintings. He also joins us in discussing the current Art Institute Focus show, Michael Asher. Also on-the-scene bits from 65 Grand s opening night and Depart-ment at Open End! Holy Crap! And if that isn t enough, Amanda Browder joins us to review the new show at Fraction, which has work from our very own Duncan MacKenzie, with Shannon Stratton!! This episode has so much material we had to cut several reviews and shift them to next week. A special surprise: guest appearances from Sarah Guernsey and Annie Coleman!

NEXT WEEK:

Interviews, news, reviews, blues, tunes, balloons, and at least two baboons. All that and so much more! Seriously though, we have an exciting guest and next week's show is not to be missed.

Yours,

Duncan MacKenzie and Richard Holland The Bad at Sports Editorial Team

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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Richard Holland wrote:

I was browsing a few chicago art blogs two weeks ago, and your audio thing is mentioned rather frequently. /jno

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Anybody know who did this?

[http://www.rachelleb.com/002474.html]

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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, jno wrote:

I was browsing a few chicago art blogs two weeks ago, and your audio thing is mentioned rather frequently. /jno

Nice! Well we keep plugging away trying to get the word out.

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The Polish sculptor who owns the Wooden Gallery. He sculpted the angel on the corner of wolcott and augusta, as well as the entire interior of that building.

L Jackson

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Hello, Long time listener- first time caller (as it were).

I have just heard that (artist and UIC Prof.) Ester Parada passed away on the 19th and that there is a service for her tonight in Oak Park at 7pm. Not much info I know, but it is all I have.

yours, Philip

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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Philip von Zweck wrote:

Unity Temple, 875 Lake Street.

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Oh, yeah, we re back. Bad at Sports: the Art and Cultural Review Podcast opens another week with a brand new bit of audio magic to brighten your day!

THIS WEEK:

Get ready--we interview Edward Lifson, host of Chicago Public Radio's weekly Arts program Hello Beautiful. He was a darned good sport, and talks about Rocky the flying squirrel and his seldom discussed past as a Puerto Rican DJ.

Also: Bill Gross of 65 Grand returns to discuss the tone of the lecture at the Three Arts Club a few weeks back. AND Amanda Browder and Richard review a plethora of shows! Rhona Hoffman, Monique Meloche, and the ever bad-assed Gallery 40000. Wow!

NEXT WEEK:

Paul Klein who has done so much a simple blurb can t contain it. Paul has us over for bagels and coffee and discusses his past as a gallerist, his present as publisher of artletter.com and the future of art in Chicago (and lots of cool stuff like a Museum of Chicago Art and the new McCormick place and art therein). Also our first official correspondent review from Brian Anderson!

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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Richard Holland wrote:

And where can we find text versions? /jno

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jno wrote:

Are you volunteering to create a transcript, how nice of you.

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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Richard Holland wrote:

Well that's was the subtle point I am trying to make. I would love to reduce yr audio to text if I had time, and if I could type fast enough to be able to do so. I have and can neither. Text would propagate your interviews much further and rapidly than audio, by being cached, copied, and archived elsewhere (I wonder if audio gets listed anywhere, but maybe there are now pod-archives). How does Google answer to a search for www.badatsports.com right now? It is nice to be at the leading edge of technology, but there are disadvantages also. And it would be nice to be able to read your amazing interviews, especially since I have no audio among three computers (I disconnected the speakers as too obnoxious), and no pods. /jno

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I appreciate your point. We barely manage to find enough time to record and produce the show. I have a day job etc...

You could always download the shows and burn them to audio CD to listen to elsewhere.

We need quality interns!

Richard

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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Richard Holland wrote:

Talk about efficiency.. But, I checked the site. I failed to understand all the fuss about "pod casts". They seem to be just mp3 files. I thought this was something 'new' and I needed a $300 ipod to plug into my ears and tune in to some microwave transmitter via an intergalactic communications system. Guess not. I'll find them tiny puter speakers and plug them in instead. Audio CD? To play frisbee with dog? Now where is that reel to reel?

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SOX WON. Someone get NuDD some nip. MT/DB

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Yeah, it is total hype, they are just simply mp3s, which I must admit, would have been made more than clear had we been allowed to post our whole press release here, but I digress. I could have the shows etched to 78s if you'd like. I did a piece once with victrolas, I know a guy.

jno wrote:

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I asked someone:

And was answered:

That will never work for art, where people just make up words. Of course you could always post-edit.

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I love that in art "people just make up words", to me, that is what makes it all worth while.

Thanks for looking into it.

If anyone has an intern they are not using bad at sports could use the help.

duncan.

On 10/27/05, jno jno at blight.com wrote:

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If you'd like, you can post this job on the CAR site. There is a section for volunteering, internships, etc. positions.

If you do, let us know how it goes.

Thanks, Barbara K.

Barbara Koenen Project Manager, Cultural Planning Division Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs 312-744-7649 barbara.koenen at cityofchicago.org

I love that in art "people just make up words", to me, that is what makes it all worth while.

Thanks for looking into it.

If anyone has an intern they are not using bad at sports could use the help.

duncan.

On 10/27/05, jno jno at blight.com wrote:

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" If you'd like, you can post this job on the CAR site. There is a

Imagine what our listing would like like...

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that might work...

Barbara Koenen Project Manager, Cultural Planning Division Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs 312-744-7649 barbara.koenen at cityofchicago.org

Imagine what our listing would like like...

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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Barbara Koenen wrote:

That's even funnier than..

Humph! /jno

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Once again, to amaze and delight, Bad at Sports is here with Episode #9!!!

THIS WEEK:

Holy guacamole it's my freaking birthday, my landlord is making me move my studio, I m in the throes of trying to find a job that sucks less than the one I have, and we STILL get the show out early.

That's quality people, trauma, mirth and on time.

When choosing podcasts remember who loves ya baby, we don't make you wait three weeks between shows like lots of the other bush league podcasters out there in I-pod land. Duncan and I sit, huddled under a bare bulb, humming "working in a coal mine" and get our shit out in short order. Golly.

Okay, anyway. This week, Chicago art legend Paul Klein talks about all sorts of interesting stuff, Duncan reviews a book and rants about the oppression of pest fowl, I counterpoint, and west coast bureau chief Brian Andrews checks in with his first report. Damn, that's a lot of quality art reporting.

NEXT WEEK:

Pentaphilic Curatorial Projects at Gallery 400 interviewed and pondered, maybe some SOFA talk, maybe some reviews, our studios have been closed so we are a podcast on the run. We ll all be surprised by what s on next week s show!

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Barbara Koenen wrote:

Howdy Barbara,

In all seriousness, I'm not sure we can offer much along the lines of compensation etc. I doubt anyone who wasn't a bit nuts, or really excited about podcasting would throw their hat in the ring. I'd be hesitant to waste someone's time on our really really menial tasks as our project is so small scale.

We do appreciate the suggestion even if I tend to come off overly wise assed. Ah the woes of e-mail and tone!

Richard

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Hey Richard,

I wasn't kidding about posting for volunteer/intern. I don't know if you'll get any takers, but you might. It sounds like you've embarked on an interesting project. I'd probably rewrite the post a bit, however...

B

On 10/30/05, Richard Holland rholland at ponderance.org wrote:

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So... Is the Richard Holland, the one we hear from who is bad at sports, also the Richard Holland quoted in the Tribune today, with his fingers "feverishly flicking through boxes of comic books" at the Chicago Comic Convention? And if so, will you cover the event on your podcast. That would make me listen.

a

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Guilty as charged, we were on our way to SOFA and I dragged the entorage into the comic convention. I feel so "outed".

Actually comic-nerd-dom is regularly discussed on the show. I have been working hard to bring the rest of the BAS staff into to unhealthy addiction of dorkiness. Duncan is this close to having a problem.

We will probably talk about it a bit, but it was a c-grade convention, we will be reviewing next years huge con as a cultural event, for sure.

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:06:15 EST, Aeelms wrote

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Holland: " I feel so "outed". "

Oh, don't feel bad... I'll out myself. recently I have had to clean out a family house, so I'm having to claim items I have hid forever: my 15 year comic collection, all my graphic novels, the 9 year subscription to Fangoria. All my Mad and Cracked magazines. (Some in Danish, don't ask why.) My 5th grade expose, "Sharks: A Report." Now I need to integrate all this into my home archives.

Suddenly, I'm much more interested in the podcast than when I thought it was just art interviews and reviews...

a

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I'd love to read "Sharks: A Report"

care to share?

Barbara Koenen Project Manager, Cultural Planning Division Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs 312-744-7649 barbara.koenen at cityofchicago.org

Holland: " I feel so "outed". "

Oh, don't feel bad... I'll out myself. recently I have had to clean out a family house, so I'm having to claim items I have hid forever: my 15 year comic collection, all my graphic novels, the 9 year subscription to Fangoria. All my Mad and Cracked magazines. (Some in Danish, don't ask why.) My 5th grade expose, "Sharks: A Report." Now I need to integrate all this into my home archives.

Suddenly, I'm much more interested in the podcast than when I thought it was just art interviews and reviews...

a